Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@rapido as I said above, the modelling we have been given tends to be worst case scenario (scare tactics?) and in most cases they haven't played out that way.
Here is an article from Jones yesterday
Happened to bump into a mate who is an ED consultant in AKLD. Said its all go down in South Auckland, some really sick people (not just over 50s) ending up in hospital. No tests, no vax, families all getting sick and not testing but still mixing. Reckons a lot of the modelling would be accurate if we just let everyone do whatever they wanted
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@godder said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@l_n_p yep, they are always comparing, so will be aiming to exceed anything anyone else does, so the legacy will be Cindy/NZ handled the pandemic better than any other country.
I know my wife would love to see her mum and dad, especially with the latter not in great health, but she is just like plenty of others on both sides of this.
I think I read something like 20,000 people tried to get into MIQ around the Christmas period with 2,000 spots available? Plus I wonder how many didnt both trying, knowing it would be a wasted effort.
They really need a prioritised system. They have had plenty of time to work out criteria and requirements.
I do get the feeling that some of the problem is caused by people who need to see the reality of the situation. I think Hipkins said this a while back and got flamed for it so they have steered clear.
Can't believe the number of people bitching and moaning that they can't get a place because they 'want to come back and see their newly born cousin/nephew etc' FFS, the kid won't know!
I get that family is big for some people but when when something like that clogs up the system for people trying a possible last visit for their parent with cancer or someone trying to return home for good once an overseas job has finished. Even businesses that, I'm sure might be able to do better with in person meetings, aren't going down if they don't.
It just seems like car drivers complaining about the congestion on the road when they are part of the cause.
Even if 50% of the places were put aside for a priority queue it would help those that truly have to get back and not just want to.They didn't make a system like that because it's a massive piece of work, would cost a huge amount to run it because it would require a large number of staff and work per application (because people lie, so applications would require documents as proof of meeting the criteria, and verification of documents), and most of the last 18 months has largely seen supply = demand, so it wouldn't have achieved anything.
Yep. Said as much 6 months ago. The need for something was becoming evident back then though as actual need increased. The easy assessments (i.e. letter from a doctor that your parent was about to die) weren't enough.
I maintain that they have had time to add to the system. Visa dates are easy to prove. We already check if people are coming back to stay or if they have recently left etc. Some wide ranging groups can at least categorise people.
Half the spots based on priority categories would help IMO.As a guy who used to work in visa processing, you are drastically oversimplifying what would be required in real life. If the system is points-based like resident visas, applicants need to document every claim to points, and processing officers need to check those documents to try to minimise fraud, because people will absolutely lie to get a place. How to allocate points will also be extremely contentious.
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@rapido as I said above, the modelling we have been given tends to be worst case scenario (scare tactics?) and in most cases they haven't played out that way.
Here is an article from Jones yesterday
If it is an attempt at scare tactics, it seems very poorly thought out. WTF kind of message is "Get vaccinated, but getting vaccinated won't do enough to protect you"?
That's really going to motivate the people who are unsure to get vaccinated
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@l_n_p Not having a go at you or any of the other Ferners struggling to return to NZ but there is a lot of fake news about MIQ as well.
There is a lot of fake news, true. But there is a lot of true news that the government is completely ignoring doing anything about. Lack of response to a pressing situation creates fake news.
The dialogue is that there are tens of thousands of Kiwis clamouring to return to NZ who have been locked out for nearly two years and the government is disregarding them in a cruel and callous way.
Thats the way I feel, correct. As do my parents, correct.
Leaving aside the fact that a sizeable number of current residents want the government to shut the border completely because it's filthy MIQ bastards causing all our issues, the situation as I described it in the first sentence is more nuanced and while I'm not that bothered some of the commentary irks me.
Yes the latest tranche of MIQ slots to become available was massively oversubscribed which is a clear indication that demand currently outstrips supply. However the notion that this has been a constant since February 2020 is an absolute nonsense. As recently as March this year you could get a slot in MIQ relatively easy. You might have had to be a little flexible over dates and you couldn't decide to book on a whim but plenty of slots were available.
Correct. However, February was a year into the pandemic . It's now 19 months into the pandemic & the frustration is not about not getting in today. It's about not getting in in the next 6 months and probably more. That will be over 2 years. Thats a huge game changer espeically for people like me whose folks are early 70's and on the slide.
Delta like in so many other ways was a game changer, particularly after everything started going tits up in NSW.
Sorry, this is wrong. Delta isn't a game changer for the quarantine / getting into NZ. Delta is actually working FOR those of us as NZ has decided to move away from wallowing in self praise, to actually sorting it's shit out for the long term!
A large number of those wanting to get into MIQ are economic refugees who had a chance to get back to NZ in 2020 and decided to ignore it, presumably because they decided life was better where they were.
You really think this? I don't know numbers, but I do know that missing out on life with family for a year is very very fucking different from missing out 2+ years, and possibly forever.
I am getting tired of media reports from 'Kiwi's' who say they have been trying to get back into NZ for two years and are being shut out and we've had to sell the house coz we lost our jobs and, and , and IT'S SO UNFAIR.
I'm sorry you are getting tired of it. I'm not tired of not being able to see my parents. In fact, I'm losing it mentally because of it.
Here's the reality for these people. Covid struck. Oz goes into Lockdown. You lose your job. Oz govt policies means the welfare safety net doesn't apply to you. NZ suddenly looks very attractive. Well it will as short term option but really you've lived in Oz for over 10 years, your kids were born there, your friends all live there and but for the Oz govt you're dinky di Ockers with a funny accent. All of which means that as soon as the situation improves for you back across the ditch you'll be straight on a plane back to wherever you currently live.
Oz part aside, like everything I OWN all my decisions. I OWN my decision to live on the other side of the planet. I am in the situation I am because of my own fault. And the one fucking time I ask the govt to help me out a bit my entire life, the one fucking time. It completely ignores me. Fuck them.
But NZ's the arsehole in all this?
That's not fair.
As I said I appreciate the above is not true for everyone and there are really sad cases of families being unable to reunite etc - many of which have been shared here. I genuinely feel for these people, but what's the alternative? NZ are not in a position to open the borders (yet) to everyone because our health system won't cope.
Why does it need to OPEN the borders and flood things crazy? Why can't it do one of the following
- More acceptable quarantine spaces
- Realistic measures to stop website scrapers snapping up the places and selling them at profits
- Allow people to quarantine at home.
I do think that Immigration could and should look into cases more deeply and apply some sort of hardship weighting. Stopping giving priority to the Wiggles would be a start. The govt is trying to set up more MIQ hotels but is meeting resistance from local communities as wo wants a plague hotel next door?
Although I understand your point here, NZ has to make a decision if it wants to be part of the world or not. Covid is out there. Its not going away anytime soon. 5 year cycle is the most realistic prediction. I am not asking the govt to go all open season on the borders. I'm asking it to consider that those of us citizens abroad, of which many pay tax & are on govt negotiated visa's which have now expired (leaving people in precarious predicament), to perhaps look at things from a different standpoint.
For all the talk, unchallenged bullshit. Not one single physical thing has changed. Not one.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Agreed. Has been the big risk in going to Oz to live for decades now. No support if things turn to shit. Can't blame NZ if you want to run home to take advantage of the support here.
Ask yourself if you'd hold the same view, if (for whatever reason) you hadn't been able to get your son back an he was still stuck in the UK unable to get a MIQ spot.
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
They really need a prioritised system. They have had plenty of time to work out criteria and requirements.
I do get the feeling that some of the problem is caused by people who need to see the reality of the situation. I think Hipkins said this a while back and got flamed for it so they have steered clear.I really don't undersand why you couldnt' have just left your post here.
Can't believe the number of people bitching and moaning that they can't get a place because they 'want to come back and see their newly born cousin/nephew etc' FFS, the kid won't know!
How completely and utterly heartless of you. the kid won't know so it's not really imporant. Jesus Christ, thats a disgusting comment.
I get that family is big for some people but when when something like that clogs up the system for people trying a possible last visit for their parent with cancer or someone trying to return home for good once an overseas job has finished. Even businesses that, I'm sure might be able to do better with in person meetings, aren't going down if they don't.
Do you not get it yet? I think almost all of us in this situation actually agree with the above. But this excuse has a shelf life. We are so far passed that now.
It just seems like car drivers complaining about the congestion on the road when they are part of the cause.
You draw a great parallel here. Hows that working out for Auckland's traffic btw? Just the 90 minutes shore to city commute still?
Even if 50% of the places were put aside for a priority queue it would help those that truly have to get back and not just want to.
Yeah, right. Instead of actually doing something about the huge demand for a limited product, lets instead ask people to not do the things that matter most to them in life. For 19 months and counting.
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Maybe there was a place for a system for licensing organisations to offer MIQ facilities. The license would enforce minimum standards and be subject to audit. Made it a criminal offence to knowingly circumvent a health order or assist someone to do the same, with any perpetrators, including employees of the organisations becoming personally liable if that happens. Put huge fines in place for negligent breaches, reflecting the national economic loss if that occurs. Let the provider organisations insure themselves against that risk then watch insurance companies manage the risks for us, and even if they go bankrupt they’re still liable as officers.
And start planning for it 18 months ago so that we have it up and running about now.
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
And start planning for it 18 months ago so that we have it up and running about now.
Bingo. Any sort of foresight of the length of this issue would have this in place. Any sort. But you know, perhaps a media not sitting in awe of the NZ PM would have been the right starting place.
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@anonymous you are looking at it back to front for scare tactics....this big bad nasty virus will kill 7000 unless you get vaccinated...as opposed to an optimistic model that says if only 70% are vaccinated we might get 2000 deaths...
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@majorrage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
And start planning for it 18 months ago so that we have it up and running about now.
Bingo. Any sort of foresight of the length of this issue would have this in place. Any sort. But you know, perhaps a media not sitting in awe of the NZ PM would have been the right starting place.
How about you simply put up the money you would pay for MIQ and get a bracelet to wear or a phone to carry (ala Taiwan) or a landline (ala Japan) and if you are not there when the phone rings or onsite at the address (with testing on days 3, 8, 14) then you lose your cash? Plus, you get charged.
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@gt12 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@majorrage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
And start planning for it 18 months ago so that we have it up and running about now.
Bingo. Any sort of foresight of the length of this issue would have this in place. Any sort. But you know, perhaps a media not sitting in awe of the NZ PM would have been the right starting place.
How about you simply put up the money you would pay for MIQ and get a bracelet to wear or a phone to carry (ala Taiwan) or a landline (ala Japan) and if you are not there when the phone rings or onsite at the address (with testing on days 3, 8, 14) then you lose your cash? Plus, you get charged.
The thinking on that one (rightly or wrongly) seems to be people cannot be trusted to abide by their laws by themselfves i.e - they are making the assumption that at least one carrier will not abide, spread it widely when out 'n about and off we go again ...
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@majorrage there's this, too. We have competition of rights, and there's going to be a really interesting legal test at some stage in the medium term about it I'm sure.
18Freedom of movement
(1)Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand.
(2)Every New Zealand citizen has the right to enter New Zealand.https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM225517.html
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@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@majorrage there's this, too. We have competition of rights, and there's going to be a really interesting legal test at some stage in the medium term about it I'm sure.
18Freedom of movement
(1)Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand.
(2)Every New Zealand citizen has the right to enter New Zealand.https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM225517.html
I'm not sure if anyone has been turned away at the border which is where they base this. It's a sneaky use of the airlines not wanting to risk having to re-locate a passenger.
The MIQ booking system simply says you need to confirm your place with a flight booking. The flights are checking MIQ vouchers but only because they don't want to have to deal with stranded passengers (remember that not just citizens are trying to get in).
Therefore the govt's argument is that they aren't stopping citizens entering when they present themselves at the border but they are restricting the numbers of MIQ spots which in turn stops people arriving.
We wouldn't be able to do this if we weren't such an isolated place as you could just queue at land border points.
Possibly why the UK wasn't very hardline either as it would have just created a flotilla of boats crossing the channel and once people landed they couldn't be denied entry. -
@crucial I totally understand htat.
I suspect, though, that a court would take a different view. In effect, citizens are being prevented from returning. The legal machinations sail veeery close to the wind.
In the short term, people will probably accept that. In the medium term, though, where the Government controls access to MIQ (see: James Shaw, America's Cup, Olympians) then it becomes hard to argue that every citizen actually has the right to return.
Like 'freedom of movement' - in the short term restrictions are strongly arguable. In the medium to long term, though, I suspect our courts will start taking a different view. the urgency disappears, and the opportunity to find other measures to respond come with time.
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@majorrage said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Although I understand your point here, NZ has to make a decision if it wants to be part of the world or not.
Culturally I don't believe wider NZ society does believe it's part of the world.
I know it doesn't apply to lots and lots of kiwis and many/most on this forum ... but the majority? Yes I feel, unless it's changed hugely in the last 15 years. The big wide world is something for a once a year vacation, and an "overseas experience" for the majority of kiwis imho.
Sorry if that offends folks, I know it will a few. But look, I grew up in NZ and came back to live there again a few years when older after 20 years of career globe-trotting.
This is the reason my gut-feel is there will be broad political support to retain MIQ as a kind of "normal thing" and only drop it very very slowly.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Possibly why the UK wasn't very hardline either as it would have just created a flotilla of boats crossing the channel and once people landed they couldn't be denied entry.
If Covid-related there are literally tens of thousands of trucks moving ongoing between Europe and UK. UK would starve without them, we are not self sufficient. Plus UK and European supply chains and manufacturing are interlinked. Honda Cars alone has 350 trucks a day bringing components into the UK. One company.
Aggregates for all goods is circa 4 million tonnes both in and out per year - by truck. Food, supply chain components, finished goods.
Locking down UK borders with Europe is not an option, commercially we are and always will be interlinked with Europe, despite Brexit.
If you mean refugees there are very clear international rules they can be intercepted but not turned back. There has been a lot of press about intercepting them on the Channel recently as our Home Office tries to look tough ... but it's all to generate right-wing positive press. Puff pieces.
The international and UK legal profession and the French government have basically told the Home Office to politely "Va te faire foutre". It won't happen.
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@l_n_p said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Possibly why the UK wasn't very hardline either as it would have just created a flotilla of boats crossing the channel and once people landed they couldn't be denied entry.
Huh, seems a very weird comment. Is this related to Covid, or to refugees and asylum seekers?
Just Covid. I don't know what the law says there but if the same it is hard to use the NZ interpretation when you have someone standing at the border asking to come in.
Just a throwaway comment. Don't read too much into it. More to show how our border situation is different as apart from the odd ship/yacht there's only one way to the border. -
@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial I totally understand htat.
I suspect, though, that a court would take a different view. In effect, citizens are being prevented from returning. The legal machinations sail veeery close to the wind.
In the short term, people will probably accept that. In the medium term, though, where the Government controls access to MIQ (see: James Shaw, America's Cup, Olympians) then it becomes hard to argue that every citizen actually has the right to return.
Like 'freedom of movement' - in the short term restrictions are strongly arguable. In the medium to long term, though, I suspect our courts will start taking a different view. the urgency disappears, and the opportunity to find other measures to respond come with time.
It would certainly be an interesting test. Pretty sure it was tested among various legal gurus and Solicitor General before being implemented but I guess it is down to intent of the Law. They would keep it very quiet but I'd wonder if anyone has actually come in on that basis by simply finding a way to arrive without an MIQ booking.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial I totally understand htat.
I suspect, though, that a court would take a different view. In effect, citizens are being prevented from returning. The legal machinations sail veeery close to the wind.
In the short term, people will probably accept that. In the medium term, though, where the Government controls access to MIQ (see: James Shaw, America's Cup, Olympians) then it becomes hard to argue that every citizen actually has the right to return.
Like 'freedom of movement' - in the short term restrictions are strongly arguable. In the medium to long term, though, I suspect our courts will start taking a different view. the urgency disappears, and the opportunity to find other measures to respond come with time.
It would certainly be an interesting test. Pretty sure it was tested among various legal gurus and Solicitor General before being implemented but I guess it is down to intent of the Law. They would keep it very quiet but I'd wonder if anyone has actually come in on that basis by simply finding a way to arrive without an MIQ booking.
Are they allowing boats to dock? Because I think they're turning away boats - but if not, simply sailing into an immigration port would be the answer.