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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@antipodean said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Why "ridiculous"?
I guess I'm the only person who finds it absurd they've decided on a scale for lesbians and can discern between levels 2, 3 and 4 for a femme lesbian.
Fair comment - I didn't even notice the numeric scale underneath it!
Quick google ... there are versions with Japanese anime, or Star Trek female characters instead?
Wouldn't know mate. As an attractive young man I wasn't in to either.
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@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@antipodean said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter Gender identity is hardly a new thing, even? ... gender labels on a binary spectrum have existed at least since the Lesbian movement of the 60-70s e.g. from "High Femme" to "Stone Butch" (fwiw Gender Theory as an academic field of study is still rooted in the feminist movement I believe)
Well that infographic isn't ridiculous at all.
Why "ridiculous"? It's an example of LGBTQ language specific to lesbians from the '60s onwards ... and the world didn't stop turning because around then they started inventing detailed terms for lesbian identities back then? And yes for sure, it DID also generate similar moral outrage for a period of time too ...
I think it's a bit disingenuous comparing this infographic to what’s currently happening with trans activism. Back in the day the only people who really took offence to this was the pearl-clutchers who took offence to everything. I certainly didn’t care if lesbians had a seat at the table because really all they were asking for was room. Giving gay people and lesbians equality in law ultimately cost us nothing except a broadening of our minds. Asking everyone else simply not to discriminate was an eminently reasonable position.
That’s not the same with the trans movement. Trans people have, in most western societies, the same protection against discrimination that everyone else has. The same protection gay people fought for already protects trans people. Most reasonable people have no problem with that at all. Where we seem to have disagreement is that some of the additional goals of the trans movement may have profound impacts on the rights of others but we don’t appear to be able to discuss those and come to a consensus because the discussion itself has been classed as transphobic. The impact on female sports is one such area.
It's a bit disingenous to say I broadened the discussion into wider concerns on trans activism where I was simply responding to point out how detailed gender identies can be seen going back to the 1960s if not before - they're hardly a new thing
The "moral outrage" I was refering to was the backlash to the butch-femme identities which (I should have detailed it better I agree, it wasn't my main focus) happened mainly within the feminist movement from the 70s on. They were seen as reinforcing both gender and heteronormative stereotypes, rather than helping to remove them.
For professional reasons I actually do follow UK equalities legislation i.e. the EA 2010, various protected characteristics in UK law - age, race, sexual orientation, disability, gender reassignment etc and how they are balanced in real life via ever-growing case law. The ongoing "Gay Cake" case for example which was raised up to the ECHR, but who just rejected hearing it, this something I need to read up on for example
Anyway for this kind of reason I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts/examples of "additional goals of the trans movement may have profound impacts on the rights of others ... The impact on female sports is one such area".
And totally agree here btw, that sport is "additional"
Certainly to my knowledge in the UK - first under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and then the far broader Equalities Act 2010 (s195) trans people i.e. with "gender reassignment" have always been able to be excluded from sport for reasons of "Fair play" or "The safety of competitors". No matter what trans activists may say, not sure how it can be transphobic to debate this, given it's enshrined in current UK law as not being a human right in the area of sport?
So UK law I know ... I don't know the current local Human Rights law situation on "Trans Sport" in NZ, US, Canada, Oz, across Europe etc ... happy to learn if others can inform me more
Do you see other/upcoming examples of "additional goals" of the trans movement i.e. similar to sport?
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Trans Swimming: Dail Mail > Lia Thomas (M2F) is CRUSHED twice by Iszac Henig (F2M)
The Daily Maily "is what it is" - so I was surprised as this article is actually quite interesting
Reading it though, left me confused on how they want to generate any moral outrage & clickbait quota via Iszac Henig ... who is reported as in-transition F2M, but HASN'T actually even started hormones (i.e. testosterone) at all yet.
Any or all of these?- Outrage: F2M trans swimmer dares to not feel appropriate shame: shows scars from breast removal, omg!
- Outrage: F2M trans swimmer gains competitive advantage from breast removal op, omg!
- Outrage: F2M people actually exist and are real, look!
In terms of actual sporting competitiveness / fairness I'm not sure I can see a problem though with Iszac?
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
In terms of actual sporting competitiveness / fairness I'm not sure I can see a problem though with Iszac?
Iszac wants to be a male, identifies as a male and would likely be offended if called a female - yet, oh how convenient, decides he is a female when it comes to competing in a race he wants to win. Bloody nice to be able to have it both ways.
The whole fuckin thing is clown world to the average person with any common sense. That's why the Mail posted it.
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@frank said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
In terms of actual sporting competitiveness / fairness I'm not sure I can see a problem though with Iszac?
Iszac wants to be a male, identifies as a male and would likely be offended if called a female - yet, oh how convenient, decides he is a female when it comes to competing in a race he wants to win. Bloody nice to be able to have it both ways.
The whole fuckin thing is clown world to the average person with any common sense. That's why the Mail posted it.
I don’t see the issue there, it can’t be a problem both ways.
They identify as male but compete as a female (given they are a female).
If hormones were involved (i.e., as part of the transitioning process), my opinion would change.
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p haven't read the article (it's the Fern) but is there any suggestion that Henig may be intersex or DSD at all? i.e., a Caster Semenya situation. Or just a really good swimmer?
Swimming is massively dependent on technique. For example my wife would beat me in any distance because she is technically very good and I'm, well, shit.
The other issue as any adult female will tell you is breasts slow you down in swimsuits. Remove those and you reduce drag.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Do you see other/upcoming examples of "additional goals" of the trans movement i.e. similar to sport?
Let me make clear this is about the trans movement, not about trans people. But yes, and I’ll give you just one: the gatekeeping of language. The point of language is communication. Simplification of the rules helps reduce barriers to entry for people who aren’t native English speakers and democratises communication so that people with less education aren’t made to feel inferior or become disadvantaged.
One of the English language's strong points is that, despite it being incredibly complex and inconsistent, it's possible to make yourself understood with a minimal vocabulary and not much grasp of the rules of grammar. If, that is, the people you are trying to talk to genuinely make an effort to understand you. There’s something ugly about educated people, despite obviously understanding full well what someone is trying to convey, telling less educated people “you’re doing it wrong”. It’s fun on the Fern, where many of us have known each other for years, but to a stranger? Yeah, fuck off with that shit.
And yet somehow it’s become acceptable to criticise or chastise someone for not knowing how to abide by a rule that was just made up a little while ago, such as individual, fluid pronouns.
Putting it bluntly, obfuscating the rules around what you decide is acceptable use of language then aggressively policing them is narcissistic, racist, classist, elitist bullying.
Then we have the obscenity of deploying the power of the state to enforce those rules.
The type of organic societal growth towards consensus on equal individual rights didn't happen through coercion, and I don’t believe it can. I get that some people want change. But they’re not even attempting to do the work on winning hearts and minds that ensures enduring shifts in the way we think and act. They’ve gone straight for the imposition of their will through the force of law.
Has it never crossed these activists’ minds how dangerous a precedent it is to invite any government to police social mores to ensure a more acceptable version is adopted? Any mores are a reflection of our time and we have no more right imposing them on future generations - which is fundamentally what laws do - than our forefathers' generations had in passing laws that banned homosexuality. Have we really learnt so little? Do we really think that governments having used it once, will want to put that tool away again? It will always be kept ready for “important” eventualities, with promises to use it sparingly, but then we’ll end up with our own Trump or Winnie Peters, and bugger me, it’s still on the books! What then?
As usual, the rich declare themselves poor, the powerful declare themselves weak, and the truly powerless are used as pawns in a naked power grab. Disgusting.
Anyway, just my take, and you did make the mistake of asking!
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Trans Swimming: Dail Mail > Lia Thomas (M2F) is CRUSHED twice by Iszac Henig (F2M)
The Daily Maily "is what it is" - so I was surprised as this article is actually quite interesting
Reading it though, left me confused on how they want to generate any moral outrage & clickbait quota via Iszac Henig ... who is reported as in-transition F2M, but HASN'T actually even started hormones (i.e. testosterone) at all yet.
Any or all of these?- Outrage: F2M trans swimmer dares to not feel appropriate shame: shows scars from breast removal, omg!
- Outrage: F2M trans swimmer gains competitive advantage from breast removal op, omg!
- Outrage: F2M people actually exist and are real, look!
In terms of actual sporting competitiveness / fairness I'm not sure I can see a problem though with Iszac?
Isn’t the point that Lia Thomas wasn’t a very good swimmer by male standards but still dominated as a female? The fact that outliers exist in the female categories who can beat him doesn’t really challenge the fact that a few mediocre men will undoubtedly take advantage of any ambiguity, without necessarily being genuinely trans, simply to become "internet-famous”, or because they like to watch the world burn. Because they are fluffybunnies. And while numerically they may be few, in the meantime they ruin sports for natal female competitors.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Do you see other/upcoming examples of "additional goals" of the trans movement i.e. similar to sport?
The main goal I see of the trans movement is normalising trans people. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that & in some ways it's actually quite admirable. Everybody deserves to live their lives the way they wish as long as it doesn't affect others. Not sure many people disagree with that.
So the question becomes around if having trans woman compete against woman has an effect on others. I personally think it does and there are a large amount of feminist groups supporters who think the same. Thus, this really is a discussion which should be able to take place with both sides presenting a view point. I do believe this is done in many forums professionally (right up to the the very top of all sports - IOC etc). Activists do probably deserve credit for this.
However, what must never be tolerated is the fear of questioning. What has happened to Rowling is completely and utterly disgusting & in my view, sets back the trans cause decades. Because one of the first things that jumps to mind now when mentioning trans, is this. The right to question, discuss, debate, disagree is a core principle of democracy and must never be shut down It can of course be argued that Rowling hasn't been shut down as she has such a huge platform already - this is true. However, she has been smeared beyond belief, regularly abused & derided for her views as well as practically disowned by many who she essentially made. It's grotesque and a clear attempt to rid her views from mainstream.
I'd love to see a survey of everyday trans people on their views of what Rowling had to say. Especially given that Caitlyn Jenner basically agrees with her.
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Do you see other/upcoming examples of "additional goals" of the trans movement i.e. similar to sport?
The main goal I see of the trans movement is normalising trans people. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that & in some ways it's actually quite admirable.
...
I'd love to see a survey of everyday trans people on their views of what Rowling had to say. Especially given that Caitlyn Jenner basically agrees with her.Sorry, been away with "real life" stuff and it's a good discussion for sure so -
Well you'd have to start with who is "trans"? Almost everyone has different views including a fair chunk of the "T" community. Btw I read somewhere that Stonewell's CEO said that their inclusive umbrella shouldn't necessarily be used for government policy which makes sense ... as a charity they have a LGBTQ+ community role (of which inclusitivity is a big part), a human rights promotion role, and input into policy
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ON TRANS IDENTIES - a few (personal) thoughts, which could also be viewed as transphobic by activists but anyway ...
- Any one with gender incongruence/dysphoria (physical and/or social) is trans - it can be huge, can be quite subtle too. Many people who are non-binary have gender dysphoria too btw
- Anyone on meds - hormones or blockers is certainly trans. Surgery doesn't define it - though it may come later and in different degrees depending on personal needs
- "Cross-dressers" aka old term "transvestites" gets complex and messy. Some certainly are trans but hide it for many reasons i.e. cross-dress part time. Some are "proto-trans" i.e. on the journey. And a significant amount certainly AREN'T trans AT ALL
- "Drag" is just a red herring because it's not really NOT a gender identity (my view) it's "gender as performance" vs what pretty much everyone does naturally or learns to do - which is "performative gender" or habitual gender signalling ... these concepts from Judith Butler, a foundational academic gender theorist (and feminist) back in the 90s and 00s
A problem is idealistic "trans-inclusivity" can overstep reality due to the grey areas. Another problem is "gender-fakes " which can include biological males in prison who fake a trans identity for a cushy ride. No one should deny this happens and people game the system ...
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JK ROWLING said 'Small but important point: I've never said there are only two genders. There are innumerable gender identities. (Tbh it's a huge point not a small one)
'The question at the heart of this debate is whether sex or gender identity should form the basis of decisions on safeguarding, provision of services, sporting categories and other areas where women and girls currently have legal rights and protections'
I think a lot of trans people would agree that on this position above, or would agree if JK Rowling had phrased it as "sex and/or gender" identity that it isn't transphobic. and is calling for discussion on getting the balance right in different areas
BUT they may understandably choose to keep quiet because they're terrified about some groups promoting policies which would lead to societal erasure, reduction of existing trans human rights, or would make medical access even worse than it is today via over-gatekeeping ...
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@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Do you see other/upcoming examples of "additional goals" of the trans movement i.e. similar to sport?
Let me make clear this is about the trans movement, not about trans people
...And yet somehow it’s become acceptable to criticise or chastise someone for not knowing how to abide by a rule that was just made up a little while ago, such as individual, fluid pronouns.
...
But they’re not even attempting to do the work on winning hearts and minds that ensures enduring shifts in the way we think and act. They’ve gone straight for the imposition of their will through the force of law.Anyway, just my take, and you did make the mistake of asking!
We might agree far more than disagree, excellent rant!
I agree on the hearts and mind stuff, the difference between asking and telling someone is huge
On the "force of law" I can't talk for law in NZ, self-ID etc?
But I do follow the detailed UK parliamentary cross-party consultations on things like reforming the Gender Recognition Act, and now on Conversion Therapy. The discussion may be far more balanced than you might imagine ... the Select Commitee consults with academics and legalists and religious groups the Trans Rights Activists would 100% consider transphobic. It's interesting reading tbh
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@l_n_p I don’t think you even need to look at trans- or gender-specific legislation to see the problem tbh. The issue of hate speech has been pushed hard by SJ activists who have used the vulnerability of trans people as one of the arguments in its favour. Having got that on the books they they now weaponise it to stifle any dissenting voices. That means the committees you mention are meeting against a backdrop of almost complete radio silence from everybody except those with the approved progressive views.
Apart from the causes they espouse, a great many progressives are indistinguishable from their far right counterparts in terms of their tactics. They don’t want democracy, because they don’t think people who disagree with them deserve a voice at all. They want submission. And so far the progressives appear to be getting it too.
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@jc Is that an NZ viewpoint or a UK or wider?
In the UK I read the Telegraph, Guardian (and Times) with the odd dip into the (for kiwis) very right-wing Spectator ... I don't see radio silence you mention, quite the opposite currently that's all
If I'm in the loony bin for cognititve dissonance is a few years, you know why
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This article I just read seemed a pretty balanced view, the question mark I had was for the future: that younger generation trans women who take puberty-blockers might not go through male puberty at all - so may be a lot closer to natal females?
"The scientists argue there is a path to allow trans women to compete in female sport by lowering testosterone. According to Pitsiladis, one way to achieve this is to change rules regarding testosterone depending on the sport, with less emphasis on using medication in events like shooting, and more in collision sports ...
However other scientists insist there is overwhelming evidence to show there is no way to allow trans women into female sport without sacrificing fairness. They point to recent studies showing that trans women maintain significant advantages from undergoing male puberty even when they subsequently lower testosterone"
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@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
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Another thing that gets me with the trans debate is trans activists comparing two data sets against one variable to try and prove that sex differences are all on a spectrum. E.G. some women are stronger than some men, so it's not obvious that trans women have an advantage. But as soon as you add in another variable - such as comparing 80kg men to 80kg females, or top female athletes against top male athletes, that overlap disappears completely and the differences are stark.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This article I just read seemed a pretty balanced view, the question mark I had was for the future: that younger generation trans women who take puberty-blockers might not go through male puberty at all - so may be a lot closer to natal females?
"The scientists argue there is a path to allow trans women to compete in female sport by lowering testosterone. According to Pitsiladis, one way to achieve this is to change rules regarding testosterone depending on the sport, with less emphasis on using medication in events like shooting, and more in collision sports ...
However other scientists insist there is overwhelming evidence to show there is no way to allow trans women into female sport without sacrificing fairness. They point to recent studies showing that trans women maintain significant advantages from undergoing male puberty even when they subsequently lower testosterone"
Puberty blockers should be illegal. No 12/13 year old should be making these sorts of decisions as a child. Far too easily led by parents or other adults with undue influence.
This will be seen as shameful in 10 or 20 years.
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@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
Ethics are societal, each country makes their own decisions at their own pace so that's a pretty wide discussion for me. Far more simply and within the "Trans in Sport" context, if puberty-blockers are a reality then sports scientists will also need to consider this as part of any future research
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
Ethics are societal, each country makes their own decisions at their own pace so that's a pretty wide discussion for me. Far more simply and within the "Trans in Sport" context, if puberty-blockers are a reality then sports scientists will also need to consider this as part of any future research
I think it's immutable that children are too young to make life changing decisions.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general