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@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@Winger said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
You guys do realise that Maori didn't just start complaining about the treaty in the last few years right? That that's total bullshit?
The complaints started basically from day 1 when it was clear it wasn't being honoured - e.g. a letter to Queen Victoria in 1856 - there is re-writing of history going on, but it's not what you think it is.Complaining about the treaty. Or the treaty not being complied with or ignored. There is a (big) difference.
https://teara.govt.nz/en/object/26662/tawhiaos-1884-petition-to-the-queen
The rewriting of history relates to this partnership rubbish. It will do a lot to undermine NZ as a country. With only a small number of chosen people on the gravy train. The rest will be pissed off.
The latter. The re-writing of history is on the side who are trying to say the Maori version is confusing / there isn't agreement on what it says etc. Stop pretending, just grow some stones and say you don't want to follow the treaty.
OK. Then please supply one link to back up this claim
I've provided one that has said the partnership is a recent development. And the partnership claim is garbage
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@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
Or grow some stones and lay out what you think go-governance looks like
Going down this route is very risky. The question that should eb discussed first is
- Is it really in the Maori version? This doesn't seem to be as clear cut as some claim
- Even of it is should go down this route. Like if the Māori version gave white males special right and privileges. My view today would be to ignore it. As it's not in the country's best interests. But if someone (or a group or an enemy country) wanted to destroy NZ, then do it. Put people into groups and build up resentment between the groups.
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I have heard activitist ask for a seperate justice and health system. Huge waste of resources and only helps a tiny proportion of NZ. Is that good for the future of NZ?
So you are arguing about something that's not even happening.
...?
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@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
What is it about the word partnership that scares you so much? To the best of my knowledge the only specific legal use of that term is in small business, which clearly isn't applicable here. It's just a word saying sorting shit out together - and when you look at the poor outcomes for Maori in areas like health, and the fact that it's not unreasonable to say the Crown has played a role in those poor outcomes, then why is it such a catastrophically bad thing to get some Maori input?
Are there no Māori public servants, public health officials, doctors etc. that can have input into programs? Why would you need to permanently set up twice the bureaucracy?
In my experience, bureaucracy are perfectly capable of ignoring the advice of people at the coal face already, whoever they may be. Just a giant waste of time and resources.
So how about we get the bureaucracy we've got actually getting informed by people and groups on the ground, instead of arbitrarily deciding what people need and more often than not getting it wrong?
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@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
Wife write a cracker of an email, but we didn’t send it. Discussed with the kids and there a big concern that there would repercussions.
Interesting thing happen in education, I remember years ago my son asking me not to pay supposedly vountary school fees because the principal said that anyone who hadn't paid them would be read out in assembly. He said stuff em, if they going to try and make some kids look bad, I will join them, and f*** the backlash. That's back about 35 years or so. I would say I was quietly proud of him and with all due respect, if you do nothing in case of backlash, I would suggest you risk bringing up young adults who will maybe not stand up to wrongdoing?
But also I went to school in the 60s and our education was all very much opposite to what you are saying too. We were taught the old english way, and were left in no doubt how grateful the Maori almost should of been that we came and colonised them, and England's history was more important than ours. Anything we had that was modern etc was because of colonisation. It was when to be considered very bright you needed to say yes sir/miss etc, and were never to have an opinion of your own. I don't recall teachers ever asking students what do you think?
It's unfortunate but education is like most things and goes with what is trendy at time. And back then what a teacher said or did was considered right and never did we do anything. There was some real shit happened in the name of education I think now looking back. And he I an far far from being a left wing or anything. -
@Winger said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
There is no government that is going to be elected in NZ who is going to implement some sort of apartheid system
Maybe try opening your eyes
Open my eyes to what? We've just had the major left wing party governing alone after a landslide election victory, and there is no apartheid.
Now we have the major right wing party governing, and they are saying 'no' to ACT's bill, they signed us up to the UN indigenous rights declaration. There's not going to be any apartheid with them either.
Winston wants to pull out of that UN declaration, Seymour is being a jerk, the Greens are batshit, TPM are understandably on the far edge. So, like I said, there is no apartheid coming, as there is broad agreement between our only two major parties, and it is only the little ones who never get to actually govern who play these extreme polarising, scaremongering lines - and you guys are just sucking it all up. -
@Winger said in NZ Politics:
As retired District Court Judge and Canterbury University law lecturer Anthony Willy noted a few years ago:
“Māori and the Crown are not partners in any sense of the word. It is constitutionally impossible for the Crown to enter into partnership with any of its subjects.”
I wonder how Anthony Willy explains the origin of the Magna Carta.
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@Winger said in NZ Politics:
@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
Or grow some stones and lay out what you think go-governance looks like
Going down this route is very risky. The question that should eb discussed first is
- Is it really in the Maori version? This doesn't seem to be as clear cut as some claim
- Even of it is should go down this route. Like if the Māori version gave white males special right and privileges. My view today would be to ignore it. As it's not in the country's best interests. But if someone (or a group or an enemy country) wanted to destroy NZ, then do it. Put people into groups and build up resentment between the groups.
Yes, it really is. If you were actually interested in finding out about it rather than looking at echo chamber blog posts there are a few books you can read. John Bluck for example gives a reasonable explanation of the key Maori terms, and some solid reasoning for the way they would have been understood by Maori at the time - based on the words chosen in the English-Maori translation and the fact that language learning was conducted by missionaries, who used these terms at the time to describe relationships in the bible.
Co-governance is a vague term - like partnership - which you seem to find equally scary.
Governance in a business sense is (business.govt.nz) ''Governance is about the checks and balances and expert advice that keep your business on track. It includes all the practices, processes and policies that help you guide your business in the right direction.''
Now take the health example. The health system has failed Maori. Shit outcomes. What is the big deal about getting some Maori input on how to improve the practices, processes and policies to improve the outcomes for Maori? That could easily be described as co-governance, and frankly it's just a good idea. But if you listen to the extremists, it means the sky is falling, and everyone non-Maori is going to be a 2nd class citizen. -
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@Winger said in NZ Politics:
@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
Or grow some stones and lay out what you think go-governance looks like
Going down this route is very risky. The question that should eb discussed first is
- Is it really in the Maori version? This doesn't seem to be as clear cut as some claim
- Even of it is should go down this route. Like if the Māori version gave white males special right and privileges. My view today would be to ignore it. As it's not in the country's best interests. But if someone (or a group or an enemy country) wanted to destroy NZ, then do it. Put people into groups and build up resentment between the groups.
Yes, it really is. If you were actually interested in finding out about it rather than looking at echo chamber blog posts there are a few books you can read. John Bluck for example gives a reasonable explanation of the key Maori terms, and some solid reasoning for the way they would have been understood by Maori at the time - based on the words chosen in the English-Maori translation and the fact that language learning was conducted by missionaries, who used these terms at the time to describe relationships in the bible.
Co-governance is a vague term - like partnership - which you seem to find equally scary.
Governance in a business sense is (business.govt.nz) ''Governance is about the checks and balances and expert advice that keep your business on track. It includes all the practices, processes and policies that help you guide your business in the right direction.''
Now take the health example. The health system has failed Maori. Shit outcomes. What is the big deal about getting some Maori input on how to improve the practices, processes and policies to improve the outcomes for Maori? That could easily be described as co-governance, and frankly it's just a good idea. But if you listen to the extremists, it means the sky is falling, and everyone non-Maori is going to be a 2nd class citizen.any comment on ecan and iwi getting to appoint 2 councillors to board with full voting rights
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The ministry of education has had a dedicated Maori division/department for a long time. I know this because I know the guy who ran it for ages
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@Dan54 said in NZ Politics:
Interesting thing happen in education, I remember years ago my son asking me not to pay supposedly vountary school fees because the principal said that anyone who hadn't paid them would be read out in assembly. He said stuff em, if they going to try and make some kids look bad, I will join them, and f** the backlash. That's back about 35 years or so. I would say I was quietly proud of him and with all due respect, if you do nothing in case of backlash, I would suggest you risk bringing up young adults who will maybe not stand up to wrongdoing?*Yeah, Kirwan is going to tell his kid to give no fucks about what this idiotic judgmental teacher thinks and openly oppose him - you are utterly delusional.
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@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
Co-governance is a vague term - like partnership
If NZers agree to this they are fools. Maori and whites alike. But also consider the PIs and Asians etc in the country now. It must be stopped for the good of NZ.
And it always starts off as no-big-deal. 1% tax and look now. Co-govenance is such a dreadful idea, I wonder if say the evil Putin is behind it
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@mariner4life said in NZ Politics:
The ministry of education has had a dedicated Maori division/department for a long time. I know this because I know the guy who ran it for ages
What, and the sky hasn't fallen?
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@booboo said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
has to be the Maori version we use
Why?
As I said in the original sentence which you chopped out mate, I think that is a reasonable aproach because the country was Maori-owned at the time. Look at it this way:
I propose to buy your house. 2 contracts are drawn up, and the one you sign says $1M, while mine says $500K.
Obviously there is a problem - but the house is yours, I can't expect to walk away with it for 500K based on a bit of paper I signed and you didn't. -
@Winger said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
Co-governance is a vague term - like partnership
If NZers agree to this they are fools. Maori and whites alike. But also consider the PIs and Asians etc in the country now. It must be stopped for the good of NZ.
And it always starts off as no-big-deal. 1% tax and look now. Co-govenance is such a dreadful idea, I wonder if say the evil Putin is behind it
Yeah, tax is bad. I hate roads and the health system and the police too.
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A few years ago I had a meeting with a senior academic at an NZ university, he told me that STEM education in NZ had decayed so far that they could barely fill places in PhD programs with capable candidates. A decade before they had more candidates than funding.
The capability has clearly been diminished.
Last year I looked at a job description for a professor position in applied mathematics. Two-thirds of it were about Maori concepts in mathematics. That is of course complete nonsense. Labour introduced a requirement that Maori were linked to grant applications in STEM. This kind of thing greatly diminishes NZ's capabilities, and discourages non-Maori academics (99%) from applying for positions. This will just reduce productivity, and further degrade NZ's capabilities.
I am faculty at a top 10 university in China, and I would not want to risk that kind of race based selection in NZ, and the chilling effect upon political freedom.
I will take my talents to Australia or Europe.
This kind of anti-productive environment is what you would see all over NZ's economy with co-governance, coupled with patronage to a terrible degree.
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@Frank said in NZ Politics:
@Dan54 said in NZ Politics:
Interesting thing happen in education, I remember years ago my son asking me not to pay supposedly vountary school fees because the principal said that anyone who hadn't paid them would be read out in assembly. He said stuff em, if they going to try and make some kids look bad, I will join them, and f** the backlash. That's back about 35 years or so. I would say I was quietly proud of him and with all due respect, if you do nothing in case of backlash, I would suggest you risk bringing up young adults who will maybe not stand up to wrongdoing?*Yeah, Kirwan is going to tell his kid to give no fucks about what this idiotic judgmental teacher thinks and openly oppose him - you are utterly delusional.
You miss the point, I am suggesting if a teacher says things like this in class, and all parents do nothing, don't we all take responsibility for it happening? I would suggest talking to other parents with kids in class and approach the principal.
What you are saying is a teacher can do whatever he or she wants with kids and everyone should just accept it because it easier? Really is that how you would bring up your kids, to show you don't stand up for what's right?? No wonder we have teachers saying shit like this, I thought we were past this kind of thing. Hey but we all got different ways of looking at things I guess. -
I personally have no problems with more in the way of Maori studies etc are made in our schools etc, don't claim to know how or what etc. But I was having a laugh at golf club yesterday when one of mates was going ballistic about learning Te Reo etc in school systems, said he thought it all should be done outside school hours etc etc, you know hell we never did it and what is the point of it all . the world has gone crazy etc. I then pointed out when I went to college I spent 2 classes a week learning French, wasn't TeReo options or anything then, just French.
As I said education like everything goes with what is trendy.
Hell once again we were taught that NZ was discovered by Abel Ta$man (or James Cook they never made up minds), and all history was taught as from when Marsden came to spread religion in country, I am not pissed, just how teacher were taught that mother England was everything etc.
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