Bench press - do you guys count the weight of the bar or not ?
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Some people seem to.....some don't....if it is an extra 20kg ( as is sometimes the case ) shouldn't it be counted in the overall total ? :nta
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when you are lifting weight, you count every ounce!!
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[quote name='MrBartMan']<br />
when you are lifting weight, you count every ounce!!<br />
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Thanks, thats just increased my BP by 20 kg in the eyes if a few naysayers !!! Excellent !!! <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> ( in a Monty Burns voice ) -
ALWAYS! <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Anyone who doesn't count it, probably can't add 20 to anything <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br />
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Exception of course is doing it on a machine, where I'm pretty sure they include the weight of the apparatus <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Not that anyone serious about bench press uses a machine anyway! -
[quote name='NTA']<br />
ALWAYS! <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Anyone who doesn't count it, probably can't add 20 to anything <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br />
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Exception of course is doing it on a machine, where I'm pretty sure they include the weight of the apparatus <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Not that anyone serious about bench press uses a machine anyway!<br />
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It sure is easier on a machine, no need to use the stabilising muscles ! -
Always count the bar mate. And stay well way from machines, they are the Devils work. Free weights are where its at.
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[quote name='Red Beard']<br />
Always count the bar mate. And stay well way from machines, they are the Devils work. Free weights are where its at.<br />
[/quote]Yup the machine takes you through an arc which I find puts more emphasis on the front delts -
I count the bar.<br />
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[quote name='TB']<br />
I count the bar.<br />
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If that is all you can bench, you had best count the bar!! <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> -
[quote name='taniwharugby']<br />
[quote name='TB']<br />
I count the bar.<br />
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If that is all you can bench, you had best count the bar!! <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /><br />
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Damn right. -
[quote name='Red Beard']<br />
Always count the bar mate. And stay well way from machines, they are the Devils work. Free weights are where its at.<br />
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But machines make you feel SO strong !!!
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until you take said confidence to the free weights and do a stevie Wonder impression! if you're not used to free weights the bloody thing twists and wobbles with a mind of its own!
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[quote name='Paekakboyz']<br />
until you take said confidence to the free weights and do a stevie Wonder impression! if you're not used to free weights the bloody thing twists and wobbles with a mind of its own!<br />
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The more you bench though, gradually it will stop happening. It takes time for all the little stabilisers to adjust, but once they do and it gets recordered into your your 'muscle memory' the shakes will becomne a thing of the past. -
Doing my benching at home but have dodgy clips on the bar keeping the weights on so they slide off one side and crash and bang everywhere !!!! The neighbours popped round to check I was OK !!! no holes in the wall ( yet ) I think I need a good spotting partner cos the wife isn't strong enoughÂ
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The muscle memory is a good thing though aye, if you've done it in the past it doesn't take too long to get back there although the first few weeks back were tough !!! -
If only I had a history of being good at cardio and had cardio memory!
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Always count the bar but make sure the bar is 20kg first, many aren't.<br />
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Free weights-there ought to be an invention for free weights where if you get stuck a pulley type system pulls the weights back or up for you.<br />
I prefer free weights but it always depends on the exercises, your technique and your physical condition. Many jocks use free weights but with such crap technique they would be better off with machines. -
[quote name='Red Beard']<br />
If only I had a history of being good at cardio and had cardio memory!<br />
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Front rowers have to be fit RB I'm sure you'd do ok in the old beep test !!! -
Front rowers don't take the beep test... except to ruck shit out of whatever is making the beep.
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beep test, don't get me started..!!<br />
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and as for counting the weight of the bar in the title, I read it today, and thought, "Fuck, count the bloody dust particles that settle on it as you are lfiting too"!!<br />
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It is amazing how much weight 2.5kgs is when you are lifting max weights too!! going from 120 to 122.5 is sod all, but blows you away!! All in the head though I reckon, as on the odd occassion I have slipeed an extra 5kg onto the bar for prop Cyril, and he still gets the set out - loverly!! -
Not wrong, that little bit of extra weight can turn the arms to jelly pretty quickly. <br />
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Says in the latest Rugby World that Percy Montgomery can bench 165kg !?!?!?! its not like he busts through tackles and is regarded as a particularly "powerful" type player but if that is accurate then....hats off to the man...would probably only weigh 90 kg at the most too !!! -
[quote name='MN5']<br />
Not wrong, that little bit of extra weight can turn the arms to jelly pretty quickly. <br />
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Says in the latest Rugby World that Percy Montgomery can bench 165kg !?!?!?! its not like he busts through tackles and is regarded as a particularly "powerful" type player but if that is accurate then....hats off to the man...would probably only weigh 90 kg at the most too !!! <br />
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He is light but his physique is very developed.<br />
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To be honest, if you are a pro player, with the back up, time, advice and supplements you should be pushing out some serious weights. -
Gregan does about the same I think :-k He's apparently the best power:weight ratio player in the Wallabies on just about all the major strength exercises.
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To be fair though, I would expect that from someone who weighs sweet f.a. like he does.
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[quote name='Milk']<br />
To be fair though, I would expect that from someone who weighs sweet f.a. like he does.<br />
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Too right. The little bugger looks to be all muscle. Would doubt he could manage 165 though !!! -
Fat schlub like me can do just over 100 - fair bet a fulltime athlete could blow that away, even if its his top lift in one rep only!
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You gotta remember that this stuff is their frickin job. They have structured weeks where they do weights fresh (not after a day at work) they have exeprt advice during sessions and they have expert nutritionists giving them tej materials they need. Plus Gregan and Percy will now be in their 10th year of professionalism and will have all that time of building their rmuscles to this level of performance. <br />
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Interestingly there was an interview with a St Helens rugbyt league player the other week who was asked what was his best weight pushed on bench press. He said something along the lines of "we don't do much of that to be honest, we generally do a lot of own body weight exercises"<br />
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Interesting i thought. -
[quote name='Fullermorg']<br />
You gotta remember that this stuff is their frickin job. They have structured weeks where they do weights fresh (not after a day at work) they have exeprt advice during sessions and they have expert nutritionists giving them tej materials they need. Plus Gregan and Percy will now be in their 10th year of professionalism and will have all that time of building their rmuscles to this level of performance. <br />
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Interestingly there was an interview with a St Helens rugbyt league player the other week who was asked what was his best weight pushed on bench press. He said something along the lines of "we don't do much of that to be honest, we generally do a lot of own body weight exercises"<br />
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Interesting i thought.<br />
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Sounds a bit like hes pulling our legs, leaguies have been into weights heaps longer than union players ! -
Not really - being overly musclebound in league isn't a lot of help, especially as a forward where you're on the move a fair bit and rarely exceed 100kg. You don't need the sustained anaerobic power that e.g. a prop does in rugby, where you have to push at scrums or rucks or mauls, or lift at lineouts. Its more about impact, twitch muscles, and speed.<br />
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While we think they get a bit more of a rest than our blokes, you need to keep in mind that half the game you're retreating and then advancing 5-10 metres at a time, while trying to smash some bloke in between. Can be quite exhausting, where Union we get to stand right up at the advantage line. -
[quote name='NTA']<br />
Not really - being overly musclebound in league isn't a lot of help, especially as a forward where you're on the move a fair bit and rarely exceed 100kg. You don't need the sustained anaerobic power that e.g. a prop does in rugby, where you have to push at scrums or rucks or mauls, or lift at lineouts. Its more about impact, twitch muscles, and speed.<br />
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While we think they get a bit more of a rest than our blokes, you need to keep in mind that half the game you're retreating and then advancing 5-10 metres at a time, while trying to smash some bloke in between. Can be quite exhausting, where Union we get to stand right up at the advantage line.<br />
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Agree and disagree NTA, I'm sure they do a lot of plyometric training but you can bet there'd be a fair bit of iron pressed as well. Look at guys like Brad Thorn, Ian Roberts, Willie Mason.....certainly no strangers to the weight room ! -
That ten-metre retreat is exhausting; it's one of the reasons we use it - very successfully - as a "Learn to make correct decisions while about to puke your lungs" exercise.<br />
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That said, lifting isn't about grunt, it's about timing. Catch your jumper just right, it's all momentum, and they weigh nothing. John Hayes' party trick is his solo lift of POC. Now, the Bull's Ms. Thomond's second cousin, and a mighty man for one man, but not even he can get the weight of POC up that high on his own on raw strength - it's timing.<br />
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I was over 100kg when weighing in at 93 kgs weight back in April. Then things got busy-busy and haven't been benching since. It's so bad, and I've lost so much muscle, I almost don't want to go back to find out how bad it is... -
Timing is the key, but it helps to have grunt. We lift our flankers because the locks are actually two fat bastards who can't jump (ie. me and another bloke <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />). Some teams we've come up against lift their 80kg hooker or midget French openside because its easier than trying to shift their Tongan second row more than 6 inches off the ground.<br />
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[quote name='MN5']<br />
Agree and disagree NTA, I'm sure they do a lot of plyometric training but you can bet there'd be a fair bit of iron pressed as well. Look at guys like Brad Thorn, Ian Roberts, Willie Mason.....certainly no strangers to the weight room !<br />
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Yeah they do weights, but what's the point of lifting 200kg on your pectorals for a game of league? There is no point where you need to engage and try to crush your opponent like in a scrum. If you overdo your weights work, there is no place on the field for you. Cliffy Palu for the Tahs didn't end up getting much time at the Dragons because he was 120kg - too heavy! -
Nick, you're a prop - or have been. So - strength and no technique, a la Andrew Sheridan, or technique and less strength - which would you rather have? :coolsmiley:
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[quote name='NTA']<br />
Timing is the key, but it helps to have grunt. We lift our flankers because the locks are actually two fat bastards who can't jump (ie. me and another bloke <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />). Some teams we've come up against lift their 80kg hooker or midget French openside because its easier than trying to shift their Tongan second row more than 6 inches off the ground.<br />
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[quote name='MN5']<br />
Agree and disagree NTA, I'm sure they do a lot of plyometric training but you can bet there'd be a fair bit of iron pressed as well. Look at guys like Brad Thorn, Ian Roberts, Willie Mason.....certainly no strangers to the weight room !<br />
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Yeah they do weights, but what's the point of lifting 200kg on your pectorals for a game of league? There is no point where you need to engage and try to crush your opponent like in a scrum. If you overdo your weights work, there is no place on the field for you. Cliffy Palu for the Tahs didn't end up getting much time at the Dragons because he was 120kg - too heavy!<br />
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Totally agree, too many muscles and you're not mobile and as such no use at all. The trick is to get the balance right !<br />
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Did Palu used to play for St George ? ( sorry don't follow league as much as I should ! ) -
Yeah they signed him because of his physicality, but he could never get his weight down to the level of mobility they wanted.<br />
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[quote name='Thomond78']<br />
Nick, you're a prop - or have been. So - strength and no technique, a la Andrew Sheridan, or technique and less strength - which would you rather have? :coolsmiley: <br />
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Both! :coolsmiley: At my level - if you can pack low and push hard, then that's all the technique you need <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> I was tighthead lock on the weekend, and our THP was getting an absolute mullering from a bloke a bit skinnier than him. As soon as the hooker I told him to get down further, we handed him a complete smashing - oppo hooker's feet were off the deck (though he was a good 6 inches shorter than either prop too :nta).<br />
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To actually answer the question: a balance of both is good. I'd rather be a 1.8m 100kg prop (I'd like to be a 100kg anything!) who could bench his own weight and pack lower, than a 1.9m 130kg prop who could lift a truck but was more bent on the engagement than a Darlinghurst rent boy. -
Richard Loe was a very very powerful man with average technique while Olo Brown was strong (but not massive), but excellent technically. Both were very good props. When propping against a guy physically your equal, better technique, willpower and teamwork will give you the advantage.<br />
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Or as my former Swansea front row mates once told me: "A props first job is to beat his man in the scrum. If you cant beat him in the scrum you have to beat him around the pitch. If you cant beat him around the pitch or the scrum, then you have to beat him up." -
Quality RB! <br />
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Bench press was one of my fav exercises until my training partner dropped out because of injury, now i can't really go heavy on a lift so have almost stopped doing it. Now i am using dumbell press, flys and dips etc... as well as some incline smith work to compensate and i have had bigger gains in that period funnily enough.<br />
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Anyway, last night did the weighted dips, with a 10kg plate. Bastard! reps on sets went from 10 to 4. I was fucked. Gonna stick with it though as it was obviously doing some quality damage to the muscles. -
[quote name='Fullermorg']<br />
Quality RB! <br />
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Bench press was one of my fav exercises until my training partner dropped out because of injury, now i can't really go heavy on a lift so have almost stopped doing it. Now i am using dumbell press, flys and dips etc... as well as some incline smith work to compensate and i have had bigger gains in that period funnily enough.<br />
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Anyway, last night did the weighted dips, with a 10kg plate. Bastard! reps on sets went from 10 to 4. I was fucked. Gonna stick with it though as it was obviously doing some quality damage to the muscles.<br />
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You can feel the burn when you do those aye !!! relatively safe too, if you arms give way your legs prevent you hitting the floor at a great rate of knots !!! -
[quote name='Fullermorg']<br />
Now i am using dumbell press, flys and dips etc... as well as some incline smith work to compensate and i have had bigger gains in that period funnily enough.[/quote]<br />
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Gains in muscle size, or gains in weight? Keep in mind that flyes will offer you key differences in the way in which your muscles pull that weight, relying more on the chest and less on the complete system of lifting. Bench works your triceps more than flyes would, for example. -
[quote name='NTA']<br />
[quote name='Fullermorg']<br />
Now i am using dumbell press, flys and dips etc... as well as some incline smith work to compensate and i have had bigger gains in that period funnily enough.[/quote]<br />
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Gains in muscle size, or gains in weight? Keep in mind that flyes will offer you key differences in the way in which your muscles pull that weight, relying more on the chest and less on the complete system of lifting. Bench works your triceps more than flyes would, for example.<br />
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Gains in both to be honest. I have tagged supersets on biceps and triceps onto the end of my normal Chest Sessions/Back and Shoudler sessions since i have been off the bench press.<br />
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I can notice a size diff and i have gone from being on the 14stone 5/7lbs level to the 14stone 9/10lb level. This might sound minimal but for a hard gainer like ,yself it has been best results yet. -
[quote name='Fullermorg']<br />
This might sound minimal but for a hard gainer like ,yself it has been best results yet.<br />
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At over 18st, I think you mean "fat bastard" <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /><br />
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Your gains there are interesting - flyes are excellent for chest because its pulling the whole muscle fibre in and out in reasonable isolation. Supersets of anything should be encouraged in my book <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
