Weights then Cardio or Cardio then Weights?

Scorz

I'm sick of reading one thing and then the other on this so I'm asking Auntie Fern. 
 
Is it better to do weights followed by cardio, or the reverse of that? I'm looking forward to snowboarding season so need to skinny up and up the quad/calf and tricep strength. Had no probs with the latter part, cranking up the weights, but I don't want to find out I'm doing the wrong thing hitting 45mins on the bike after that.

Milk

I'm interested in the opinions on this. 
 
My advice had been to do weights first, so you have as much energy as possible for that. I had also heard the cardio afterwards is good for getting rid of the lactic acid or something?

Scorz

Yeah there's heaps of conflicting stuff out there. 
 
Unrelated to my question,just BTW, this site has been excellent for jogging the memory on technique and some ideas: [url="http://www.exrx.net"]http://www.exrx.net[/url]

MN5

Theres so many schools of thought on this that it does get confusing. Personally I try to do cardio in the morning two or three times a week, in saying that its not long runs on the treadmill its more interval work ( tabata stuff, read the high intensity vs low intensity thread ) which supposedly helps preserve muscle mass more and means I can get it over with quicker cos a) I am a lazy fucker who will lie in bed in the morning up until THE LAST POSSIBLE SECOND and <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> I have a 10 month old boy who I'd rather hang out with than spend ages doing cardio ( although the 10kg or so he weighs adds up when hes in a backpack and I'm doing big walks up wellingtons hills so I can occasionally combine the two ). I do weights three times a week ( Sundays, tuesdays and thursdays ) but thats just about always in the evening. morning cardio on an empty stomach helps you burn more fat ( but then do a google search on it and some people will advise you a full stomack gives you more energy ?!?!? )

Scorz

Hmmm, seems Auntie Fern is pretty slow on results so far as to the initial question... Would have thought RB or Bartman would have the goods. 
 
That Tabata looks like it could be the go, will give it a try this weekend. 
 
Any one hitting the slopes (on a board) this year should crank into these, they make going into and landing those spins so much easier: [url="http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Obliques/WtLyingTwist.html"]http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Obl ... Twist.html[/url]

MN5

As davidav said Tabata can be done with anything and if done correctly you should be sweating and completely rooted after 4 minutes, if you aren't you aren't doing it right....

MajorRage

My PT always makes me do weights first, then finish with Cardio. 
 
Although, I'm still rather fat, so may not be the way forward.

WillieTheWaiter

I'd lean towards cardio first, then weights after. 
 
farked if I could do a decent run after a legs session. No probs the other way around though. 
 
All depends on what your cardio / weights combo is really doesn't it...? 
 
e.g. if you were doing a swim and a leg weight combo I see no reason what order you did them in.

BartMan

cardio goes second, so you burn your fat rather than the glycogen (energy, is glycogen the right word) in your muscle - that will already be gone from the weights session, so instead of burning your energy that is 'ready to go', you start burning your stored energy (FAT). 
 
The above is what I have been told anyway. 
 
Also the traiing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach again is to you mobilise your fat reserves by not having any energy on hand other than that pesky FAT!!!!

Scorz

[quote name='BartMan']cardio goes second, so you burn your fat rather than the glycogen (energy, is glycogen the right word) in your muscle - that will already be gone from the weights session, so instead of burning your energy that is 'ready to go', you start burning your stored energy (FAT). 
 
The above is what I have been told anyway. 
 
Also the traiing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach again is to you mobilise your fat reserves by not having any energy on hand other than that pesky FAT!!!![/quote] 
Makes sense, and was what I was initially told. The seeds of doubt planted by different sources never added up, hence the question. 
 
Right, so will persevere with that strategy and try the Tabata idea. 
 
Squats with feet at same width as snowboarding stance = farkin hard work, but quite motivational because it seems like the right idea... I'm even considering bringing my stance in 20mm or so because it seems too easy to fall over.

MN5

It always amazes me when stars like Hugh Jackman for Wolverine, Christian Bale for Batman, the main guy for 300 or whoever get in such amazing shape in a seemingly short period of time for their roles. Ie the guns get so much bigger yet the abs and veins get so much more defined. This seems impossible to me and while some of this can be down to a bit of digital trickery at times I stop and think that that is their JOB so they have ample time to eat the six small meals a day, train after a great nights rest, expert advice etc. I suppose the same can be said of pro sportsmen. Not as easy for the rest of us sadly..... 
 
( then again I'm sure roids aren't out of the question for some of them either )

BartMan

mn5 - IT DOESN'T TAKE long when you are eating the right foot for the fat to go and the muscle to show! But it IS bloody hard work! And with a full time traininer as you train etc, and no full time jobs, it would be much easier and they would get results faster. 
 
Oh to be a movie star eh!

MN5

[quote name='BartMan']mn5 - IT DOESN'T TAKE long when you are eating the right foot for the fat to go and the muscle to show! But it IS bloody hard work! And with a full time traininer as you train etc, and no full time jobs, it would be much easier and they would get results faster. 
 
Oh to be a movie star eh![/quote] 
 
I'm getting there but its hard, sometimes after a hard day at work a cheeky pizza or KFC is so much easier than preparing a proper meal ( avoid chips at all costs though ! ) and the chicken is great for a bit of protein but damn the colonel for coating it in such tasty skin !!!!

Catogrande

After reading this htread I thought I'd have a look at the Tabata thing. I did my first session today. As a warm up I ran to the gym (a little over a mile), did some weights and then a Tabata sequence on the rower. Absolutely farked after four minutes and the last twenty seconds were never ending. It was a very slow run back to Chez Cato as well. However I think I'll give it a proper go as like MN5 I am time poor, so three or four times a week with a Tabata sequence plus a bit of weights and running might be the thing. Trouble is that work is bloody stressful at the moment and the beer is alovely haven at the end of the day. eusa_think

Scorz

That Tabata stuff ROOTED me! Did it Saturday arvo on the bike, Sunday was going to do some low impact just to blow the cobwebs out, and bugger me the cobwebs turned out to be chains with the legs hurting! 
 
Good stuff, and fast.

MN5

I feel bad for missing this mornings Tabata ( always slightly tougher to get yo ass out of bed in the colder months ) but a nice big walk through the hills yesterday with MN5 jr on my back certainly got the legs burning. Alot of exercise is about variety and while a sunday walk is good thats just it, its a SUNDAY walk, no time for that during the week sadly.

ACT Crusader

I'm in the weight training and then HIIT cardio last. 
 
2-3 times a week I do 3 combinations of superset weight training sets and then 15-20mins intervals on the bike, tready or X-trainer. Its tough but the key is to not hold back and just go for it and feel the 'good' pain (for both weights and intervals). 
 
I also try a sequence of picking a weight excercise (barbell rows or bench press for example) load it up to 80-85% capacity of what you can lift, and do a set of 8 or 10. The jump on the tready or bike and go hard for 3 minutes. Then jump off and do another weight set, then another 3 min etc etc. Do that say 5 or 6 times with no rests and you have a mean 20-25 min workout that will have you sweatin and feeling 'alive'. I do that instead of my normal 15+min interval training say once a fortnight to just mix it up and keep it interesting. Probably not worth doing all the time. 
 
But the key is eating, particularly if your past 30yo. 
 
I've lost at least 2-3 inches off the waist since I started this combination of training. I can't believe the weights I am now pulling/lifting. Hell I would never have imagined doing dumbell rows with 30 and 32.5kg dbs. I've never really done serious weight training or interval cardio until earlier this year. I've dabbled throughout my life but nothing like this. The weight has come off and I now have definition in the arms and shoulders and the top 2 (almost 4) abs are showing.

MN5

[quote name='ACT Crusader']I'm in the weight training and then HIIT cardio last. 
 
2-3 times a week I do 3 combinations of superset weight training sets and then 15-20mins intervals on the bike, tready or X-trainer. Its tough but the key is to not hold back and just go for it and feel the 'good' pain (for both weights and intervals). 
 
I also try a sequence of picking a weight excercise (barbell rows or bench press for example) load it up to 80-85% capacity of what you can lift, and do a set of 8 or 10. The jump on the tready or bike and go hard for 3 minutes. Then jump off and do another weight set, then another 3 min etc etc. Do that say 5 or 6 times with no rests and you have a mean 20-25 min workout that will have you sweatin and feeling 'alive'. I do that instead of my normal 15+min interval training say once a fortnight to just mix it up and keep it interesting. Probably not worth doing all the time. 
 
But the key is eating, particularly if your past 30yo. 
 
I've lost at least 2-3 inches off the waist since I started this combination of training. I can't believe the weights I am now pulling/lifting. Hell I would never have imagined doing dumbell rows with 30 and 32.5kg dbs. I've never really done serious weight training or interval cardio until earlier this year. I've dabbled throughout my life but nothing like this. The weight has come off and I now have definition in the arms and shoulders and the top 2 (almost 4) abs are showing.[/quote] 
 
That annoyingly cheesy Ryan Reynolds says that ultimately being in great shape is 20% exercise ( which I have no trouble with ) and 80% diet ( which due to work and a liking for the odd pizza and beer I can ocasionally struggle with ) 
 
Fucken easy for him and other famous people though, they're paid to be like this and have oodles of time !

Scorz

Yeah the weights and cardio, low carbo and low calorie, lots of protein and RDI of fibre diet is working for me, not losing weight but have dropped a jeans size. 
 
I thought energy levels were going to be a problem when I started to seriously chop out the carbs from lunch, but up until Friday/Saturday I had no worries. I hit some sort of dirty big wall, did upper body weights fine, went to hit some cardio and just had nothing. Went and had a drink of water, look out the window, tried again, just couldn't break through it. 
Saturday was my scheduled "day off", so didn't even look at the gym room. Then I jumped back into it on Sunday and totally smashed it up, felt great after. I'm trying to pinpoint where I over-did it so I can learn from this, but so far all I've come up with is maybe overdoing it at some point during the week... xzxscratch_one-s_head

BartMan

yeah, energy levels do drop at the start, but once you get used to it, sweet - think your body gets used to using enegy sourcces from other than the carbs - the 'energy stored in your fat (I would assume)!! 
 
I am fine now, but the first couple of weeks, shattered! 
 
And for sure the eating is the key - I am training less now time wise than I used to, but eating right, so getting results. I would much rather train hard and eat any old shit, but that doens;t work!!

Catogrande

[quote name='BartMan']yeah, energy levels do drop at the start, but once you get used to it, sweet - think your body gets used to using enegy sourcces from other than the carbs - the 'energy stored in your fat (I would assume)!! 
 
I am fine now, but the first couple of weeks, shattered! 
 
And for sure the eating is the key - I am training less now time wise than I used to, but eating right, so getting results. I would much rather train hard and eat any old shit, but that doens;t work!![/quote] 
 
So Bart, apart from 6 tins of tuna a day, what are you eating?

MN5

[quote name='Catogrande'][quote name='BartMan']yeah, energy levels do drop at the start, but once you get used to it, sweet - think your body gets used to using enegy sourcces from other than the carbs - the 'energy stored in your fat (I would assume)!! 
 
I am fine now, but the first couple of weeks, shattered! 
 
And for sure the eating is the key - I am training less now time wise than I used to, but eating right, so getting results. I would much rather train hard and eat any old shit, but that doens;t work!![/quote] 
 
So Bart, apart from 6 tins of tuna a day, what are you eating?[/quote] 
 
Eating tuna is a huge bugbear of mine, basically I can't stand it. Can anyone recommend a good substitute ?

Scorz

I can't eat tuna at all. Actually gag when I smell it.

BartMan

Salmon or any other fish would suffice - Mrs bartMan is on the salmon, doesn't like Tuna either. 
 
A training days diet - today's... with me working out in the morning. 
 
6am - horley replace energy drink - a scoop in water before gym, then training. 
 
then after training some protein shake thing - can't remmeber the name, 250ml low fat milk and banana in a blender - the banana and milk just new, have been having it with water until a few weeks ago. 
 
10am chicken leg, 10 almonds, 185gm tin of tuna 
 
12am 4 slices whole grain bread - vogels, tin of tuna, salad (makes two sandwiches with the tuna and salad etc) and piece of fruit. 
 
mid arvo half cup yoghurt, 10 almonds, another pice of fruit 
 
dinner is 185 gm chichen or steak or fish, 4 cups vege (no peas or corn). 
 
late snack half cup yoghurt with scoop protein powder. 
 
repeat... 
 
non training days sees the morning shake replaced by a 6 egg omlette, which used to be 1 yolk and 6 whites, but is now 3 yolks and 6 whites. 
 
at the moment soy sauce and chillinsauce salt / pepper etc and the like allowed to make food taste better, but in the lean down period that gets reduced too to stop water retention and all that shite - I don't listen to the reason why we have to do things when the trainier talks, I just do it because she says...!!

MN5

Chucking an egg ( or TWO ) in the protein shake can be good I've found. Just make sure you secure the lid nice and tight when you shake it ( bad experience last week ). 
 
Salmon it'll be then, I absolutely love that stuff. I've tried that chicken in a tin but thats as bad as tuna I reckon. Beef Jerky is also good but at about 3 bucks a pop for fuck all it isn't really worth it....

Scorz

Tuna, Salmon, urghh. Fish is basically catfood as far as my tastebuds are concerned, and I can't even look at it usually, much less smell it! 
 
Sucks au, would be easier to find a decent lunch feed!

MN5

So when you have F'n'Cs you have to tell them to hold the F's ? 
 
I absolutely love seafood. I'm sure I must be part maori without knowing it, well if Paul Tito can be then so can I !

Scorz

[quote name='MN5']So when you have F'n'Cs you have to tell them to hold the F's ? 
 
I absolutely love seafood. I'm sure I must be part maori without knowing it, well if Paul Tito can be then so can I ![/quote]Nah I have scallops or mussells. <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

ACT Crusader

Depending on the type of training or weight goals you have will/should determine your diet. 
 
If you want to basically build muscle then its going to be heaps different than someone that just wants to lose belly fat. 
 
You basically have to decide which one you want to achieve. I've read a number of academic reports that suggest its fairly difficult to do both. Bodybuilders seem to know how to do it over a period of a year, getting huge muscle and then losing fat. But for 99% of us its not going to happen that way, and unless you can devote all your time to full time bb, then it simply won't happen. 
 
I eat a lot of fruit and veges and nuts (walnuts, almonds, raw peanuts), and then get stuck into high protein stuff - lean red meat, eggs, chick peas, lentils, beans etc. 
 
I very rarely eat pasta or rice. Potatoes every now and again. Essentially I get my carbs from fruit and veges. 
 
I think if there were 2 things I'd recommend to anyone would be 1) write down everything you eat for a fortnight - this will astound you probably, but what it got me doing was reading llabels on all food and comparing it to other like brands etc. Its not calorie counting, but an awareness of what you are doing in order to change. 2) High intensity workouts involving weight resistance. Male or female, get on the dumbell full body movements reducing rest times in between supersets. Also get onto the body weight stuff. Do it at high intensity and for no more than 45mins a workout 4 times a week with other activities. 
 
not to get all soppy but this stuff has changed my life

Catogrande

[quote name='BartMan']Salmon or any other fish would suffice - Mrs bartMan is on the salmon, doesn't like Tuna either. 
 
A training days diet - today's... with me working out in the morning. 
 
6am - horley replace energy drink - a scoop in water before gym, then training. 
 
then after training some protein shake thing - can't remmeber the name, 250ml low fat milk and banana in a blender - the banana and milk just new, have been having it with water until a few weeks ago. 
 
10am chicken leg, 10 almonds, 185gm tin of tuna 
 
12am 4 slices whole grain bread - vogels, tin of tuna, salad (makes two sandwiches with the tuna and salad etc) and piece of fruit. 
 
mid arvo half cup yoghurt, 10 almonds, another pice of fruit 
 
dinner is 185 gm chichen or steak or fish, 4 cups vege (no peas or corn). 
 
late snack half cup yoghurt with scoop protein powder. 
 
repeat... 
 
non training days sees the morning shake replaced by a 6 egg omlette, which used to be 1 yolk and 6 whites, but is now 3 yolks and 6 whites. 
 
at the moment soy sauce and chillinsauce salt / pepper etc and the like allowed to make food taste better, but in the lean down period that gets reduced too to stop water retention and all that shite - I don't listen to the reason why we have to do things when the trainier talks, I just do it because she says...!![/quote] 
 
You haven't mentioned the turps at all. You have just forgotten this right? I mean you must have a beer now and then? Right?

BartMan

Cato, the last beer I had was I think with treat meal #2 at Lone Star Cafe in Tauranga. It was a Steinlager Pure, icy cold. That must have been ten weeks or so ago now <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> 
 
Thank god it is winter here, otherwise it would be impossible - mowing the lawns on a hot summer day requires, nay, [i]demands [/i]a beer once you are finished! 
 
But in teh dim dark depths of winter, it is not so hard!

MN5

[quote name='BartMan']Cato, the last beer I had was I think with treat meal #2 at Lone Star Cafe in Tauranga. It was a Steinlager Pure, icy cold. That must have been ten weeks or so ago now <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> 
 
Thank god it is winter here, otherwise it would be impossible - mowing the lawns on a hot summer day requires, nay, [i]demands [/i]a beer once you are finished! 
 
But in teh dim dark depths of winter, it is not so hard![/quote] 
 
In Winter you don't even need to mow the lawns cos they don't grow !! 
 
Booze is such a bugbear of mine as well, mind you I may have a couple of solutions. Macs Spring tide and pure blonde. Both have around 70% less carbs than normal beers and while not the most outstanding drops are pretty decent.

Milk

[quote name='BartMan']Salmon or any other fish would suffice - Mrs bartMan is on the salmon, doesn't like Tuna either. 
 
6am - horley replace energy drink - a scoop in water before gym, then training. 
 
dinner is 185 gm chichen or steak or fish, [b]4 cups vege (no peas or corn[/b]). 
 
[/quote] 
 
Bart, that sounds like an intensive meal plan. How long can you keep it up for? 
 
What is the purpose of the energy drink in the morning? I thought it was better to lat off the carbs before a training for weight loss purposes. 
 
4 cups is a shit load of vegetables. Why no peas or corn? 
 
Thanks

BartMan

peas and corn very starchy=carbs. 
 
No idea on the energy in the AM, jsut to fuel you up for training - is just one scoop, so like a couple of tablespoons of sugar I s'pose. 
 
well, been what, 10 weeks or so now (I could check my arnold thread, but too lazy), and October 10 is 'showtime', so will let you know how long we can continue!!! 
 
4 cups of veg once you cook them don't seem so large!! Sometimes do a half salad half vege thing too!! it's either veg or salad for your greens.

Catogrande

[quote name='BartMan']Cato, the last beer I had was I think with treat meal #2 at Lone Star Cafe in Tauranga. It was a Steinlager Pure, icy cold. That must have been ten weeks or so ago now <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> 
 
Thank god it is winter here, otherwise it would be impossible - mowing the lawns on a hot summer day requires, nay, [i]demands [/i]a beer once you are finished! 
 
But in teh dim dark depths of winter, it is not so hard![/quote] 
 
There are several reasons to get thrown out of the front row union, but man - you have crossed the Rubicon now.

BartMan

mate, I am lighter than ANY player in the Blues squad this season, even Jimmy bloody Gopperth!! 
 
My union card self destructed weeks ago...

Catogrande

Well congratulations then - I must say it seems to be going very well for you. Is the plan to continue after the comp or is it straight on the lash afterwards?

BartMan

I think three weeks after the comp are the nationals - so if those are qualified for, be straight back into training for 3 weeks. But the night of the comp, I am planning on visiign every hamburger joint in Wellington, before having the two beers that will turn me on my head!!

Catogrande

Smal steps my man, small steps. Just ease yourself back into it and you should be ok <img src='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/invision/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

BartMan

fuck no, once it is over - you are apparantly shagged, I am just going to eat the first thing that comes into my mind - at the moment it is breakfast cereals that I would kill for - a big arse bowl of cornflakes would go down a treat - it is weird! Mrs BartMan it is eggs on toast!!

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Weights then Cardio or Cardio then Weights?