Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@stodders said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@stodders So will cold cases, as it’s winter. Why should we care again? Unless you’re claiming that people are being hospitalised and dying despite the vaccination rate being so high. Is that what you’re claiming?
No. I'm not claiming that. All I know is:
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The vaccines do not confer immunity or prevent transmission.
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Any beneficial effect the vaccines do have wears off, the vaccine manufacturers don’t know when.
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Vaccines possibly don’t protect against new variants or mutations. Omicron testing will tell us more, but history suggests these types of virus are very difficult to vaccinate against.
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Vaccines have unknown longterm side effects.
The vaccine rhetoric started with the position that vaccines were a two-shot ticket out of the pandemic.
Then this was amended to say that they stopped transmission in the vaccinated (that it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated).
Now we're at the point where the vaccines don't stop transmission or infection but they reduce the impact of the disease if you're unlucky enough to get it (given the statistics of infection). But, here comes the caveat, this only applies if you continue to get boosters for an unspecified period into the future.
I don't like the demonisation of people who have chosen to not get the vaccine. And when you look at the above and see how often the goalposts keep getting moved (as a result of hard scientific evidence, but why come out with statements claiming outlandish benefits if you doubt they will stand the test of time), it becomes harder to argue with people that have doubts about the true efficacy of the vaccines.
Which is when you get to the stage of vaccine mandates/compelled medical intervention. And IMO, that is a place I thought we'd never get back to, which saddens me immensely.
Maybe true but it’s not what I asked you. You made a comment that “and yet virus transmission rate is increasing”. So long as we aren’t having excess deaths or overloaded ICUs why do we care what the transmission rate is?
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@siam said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
A while ago there was an anecdote about a fern co worker with a vulnerable child at home. The co worker wanted to know his colleagues vaccination status and request he be isolated at work from the unvaccinated.
Fair enough, I get that and his fear that an unvaccinated individual infects him and he passes that infection onto his immuno-compromised child. A potentially life threatening situation for his kid. I understand that he wants to take away that root cause. That sounds in line with the government messaging. No problem.
But what happens if a vaccinated co worker infects him and then he takes that home and his kid dies?
Who does he blame then? How does the current system ensure against that ghastly ( and highly plausible) situation?
I've been mulling that one for weeks.
I think our own ethical obligation is to do as much as we possibly can to not put at risk people who aren’t in a position to mitigate the risks. If me getting vaccinated makes it less likely that I catch and pass on an infection to my co-worker’s child, then I’m happy to do it. Sure, there is still a risk that I do exactly that even when I’m vaxxed, but if the worst happened at least I can look them in the eye and we both know I did all I could. I’m not sure I’d be able to do the same if I hadn’t got jabbed. That’s just being a decent human being. I think everybody should think like that.
But I don’t think it’s the state’s job to impose vaccination on people. They’ve made it available, for free, and mandated a vaxxed status for those workers whom the public has no legal choice to refuse interaction with, like police and prison officers. But that’s where it should end I think. The rest is up to us to be decent to one another.
It’s ironic that the PM’s mantra is to be kind, when she’s happy to enforce unkindness to get it.
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
But I don’t think it’s the state’s job to impose vaccination on people. They’ve made it available, for free, and mandated a vaxxed status for those workers with whom the public has no legal choice to refuse interaction with, like police and prison officers. But that’s where it should end I think. The rest is up to us to be decent to one another.
Agree. I wouldn't mind so much if it was 2 shots and thats it. And then people got their freedoms back (to early 2020 levels). But its starting to look like no end of booster shots. And all sorts of controls even if people comply with all the rules (masks vaccines etc). I starting to worry it will never end. And this nightmare gets worse (the whole country in red). I don't fear COVID. Thats part of life. I fear living for good in a country like NZ has become. With no way out.
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@winger Yeah, I’m not caring about boosters. If they provide them I’ll take them. When the pandemic started everything looked pretty bleak and people my age had to take a deep breath and ask ourselves whether crashing the country’s way of life was worth it just to protect us from the inevitable. The answer was no.
I’m impressed and amazed that they’ve found something that gives me a much better than even chance of living with the virus TBH, and it makes no sense to turn it down. Boosters will be better than the alternative.
Now the government should get out of the way. They can’t protect us fully, so let us find our own equilibrium point. Thanks very much, but we’ll take it from here.
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@stodders said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@stodders So will cold cases, as it’s winter. Why should we care again? Unless you’re claiming that people are being hospitalised and dying despite the vaccination rate being so high. Is that what you’re claiming?
No. I'm not claiming that. All I know is:
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The vaccines do not confer immunity or prevent transmission.
-
Any beneficial effect the vaccines do have wears off, the vaccine manufacturers don’t know when.
-
Vaccines possibly don’t protect against new variants or mutations. Omicron testing will tell us more, but history suggests these types of virus are very difficult to vaccinate against.
-
Vaccines have unknown longterm side effects.
The vaccine rhetoric started with the position that vaccines were a two-shot ticket out of the pandemic.
Then this was amended to say that they stopped transmission in the vaccinated (that it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated).
Now we're at the point where the vaccines don't stop transmission or infection but they reduce the impact of the disease if you're unlucky enough to get it (given the statistics of infection). But, here comes the caveat, this only applies if you continue to get boosters for an unspecified period into the future.
I don't like the demonisation of people who have chosen to not get the vaccine. And when you look at the above and see how often the goalposts keep getting moved (as a result of hard scientific evidence, but why come out with statements claiming outlandish benefits if you doubt they will stand the test of time), it becomes harder to argue with people that have doubts about the true efficacy of the vaccines.
Which is when you get to the stage of vaccine mandates/compelled medical intervention. And IMO, that is a place I thought we'd never get back to, which saddens me immensely.
Maybe true but it’s not what I asked you. You made a comment that “and yet virus transmission rate is increasing”. So long as we aren’t having excess deaths or overloaded ICUs why do we care what the transmission rate is?
This is the question I'd like to see journalists continually ask government leaders and health officials every press conference over and over again.
Make the (endemic now) covid problem be ALL about hospitalisations and deaths and not about case numbers. Just like the flu and other endemic diseases.
Be honest and precise about who dies and suffers and by what age brackets and (yes) current health status.
Then we can lay off pressuring parents to use their kid's health as the tool for salvation, the illogical legislations, and lay off the paranoia about spreading a microscopic pathogen. A spread that we could never hope to eliminate, even at March 2020.
Treat this motherfucker like a nasty, but not necessarily fatal, seasonal flu.
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@jc said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@winger Yeah, I’m not caring about boosters. If they provide them I’ll take them. When the pandemic started everything looked pretty bleak and people my age had to take a deep breath and ask ourselves whether crashing the country’s way of life was worth it just to protect us from the inevitable. The answer was no.
I’m impressed and amazed that they’ve found something that gives me a much better than even chance of living with the virus TBH, and it makes no sense to turn it down. Boosters will be better than the alternative.
Now the government should get out of the way. They can’t protect us fully, so let us find our own equilibrium point. Thanks very much, but we’ll take it from here.
Which is what we all actually did in March and April 2020. The human to human behaviour in the first month was actually marvellous and everyone was on the same page.
Then came some interesting age and vulnerabilities data, and a non nuanced government narrative of doom and gloom and certain death. Which we're still in.
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CDC study (with small sample and not yet peer reviewed) concluding -
"As this field continues to develop, clinicians and public health practitioners should consider vaccinated persons who become infected with SARS-CoV-2 to be no less infectious than unvaccinated persons. These findings are critically important, especially in congregate settings where viral transmission can lead to large outbreaks."
Other studies I have read show the opposite or a slight tendency for vaxxed people to be less contagious. But I think this issue is very important when we are restricting the freedoms of those who don't want to be vaxxed (I am vaxxed by the way)
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@frank said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
CDC study (with small sample and not yet peer reviewed) concluding -
"As this field continues to develop, clinicians and public health practitioners should consider vaccinated persons who become infected with SARS-CoV-2 to be no less infectious than unvaccinated persons. These findings are critically important, especially in congregate settings where viral transmission can lead to large outbreaks."
Other studies I have read show the opposite or a slight tendency for vaxxed people to be less contagious. But I think this issue is very important when we are restricting the freedoms of those who don't want to be vaxxed (I am vaxxed by the way)
I don't think there was ever much to suggest vaccinated people were significantly less infectious with Delta (unlike earlier variants) if they did catch it, but they recover faster (hence the shorter MIQ stays in NZ) so are infectious for a shorter period of time which has an impact on overall transmission, and are less likely to end up in hospital which can infect health workers and other patients (rare in NZ, our PPE use and systems are pretty decent there). That said, the main defence against transmission is not catching it at all, which is over 80% after vaccination and wanes to about 50% after 6 months (which is still pretty good).
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There are now a number of people in nz who have survived covid.
Is their increased natural immunity a consideration for vaccination or are they still categorised as "anti-vaxxers" or non vaccinated?
Does previous infection influence vaccine and booster decisions in NZ?
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@siam less than 6,000 have recovered with just over 6,000 active Delta cases, but the recovered number includes the original strain too, so any gains from natural immunity is negligible with less than a quarter of a % right now, assuming all 6,000 recover.
I dont think all the unvaccinated are "anti-vaxers" some have genuine concerns, or fear, or whatever, some are probably in the 'you cant tell me what to do camp' and then there will be the anti-vaxxers too.
As to the last part of your post, I'd say no.
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@siam less than 6,000 have recovered with just over 6,000 active Delta cases, but the recovered number includes the original strain too, so any gains from natural immunity is negligible with less than a quarter of a % right now, assuming all 6,000 recover.
I dont think all the unvaccinated are "anti-vaxers" some have genuine concerns, or fear, or whatever, some are probably in the 'you cant tell me what to do camp' and then there will be the anti-vaxxers too.
As to the last part of your post, I'd say no.
Thanks mate, I worded that horribly and wondered about the vaccination status of those relatively few NZers who had naturally acquired immunity. I.e. if they had to vaccinate as well.
The bolded part above: ain't negligible to those lucky buggers!😉 ( I know what you meant mate,👍)
For context, i don't know if acquired immunity individuals in aus are exempt from the jab either. (pretty sure it won't save you in the NT 😁)
And totally agree with your antivaxxer comments. These days all you need to do is ask questions to be labelled a scum antivaxxer.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Talking to a bar owner and a couple of retailers, Friday seems to have been their busiest day ever. Also saying the Vax cert app is really easy to use and in the main people are compliant and prepared. Just happy to be out on parole.
Was in Rotorua for a work piss up and as we went bar hopping my phone was dangerously close to running out of batteries, stuck at 1% for awhile ( I was probably looking for memes to put on the fern ). Luckily staff let me charge it behind the counter after showing my pass.
Everything very civil and straightforward but I can see issues arising in the future with people losing their phones/passes etc.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Talking to a bar owner and a couple of retailers, Friday seems to have been their busiest day ever. Also saying the Vax cert app is really easy to use and in the main people are compliant and prepared. Just happy to be out on parole.
Probably obvious and already mentioned here, but adding all my family's passes to my Apple Wallet was very convenient and meant we only really need one phone out with us.
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@kirwan not to mention all the Police resources already at other borders around Northland/Auckland/Waikato...
Still a long way to go, with over 9,000 1st doses, and isnt the Green light contingent on all regions hitting the magic 90?
Whangarei has 2700 or so to hit 90% 1st doses.
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@kirwan you know if that can be done on Android?
Yep, sure can. Easy to carry the younger people's passes.
I'm paranoid, so have also saved teh PDF to the home screen to fine it easily