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    Red Cards

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    • taniwharugby
      taniwharugby last edited by taniwharugby

      Obviously a big talking point at the moment.

      INterestingly I have seen comments on here about how players will cop a tougher time with NH Refs.

      But I see there were 5 red cards in the NH over the weekend too, will probably need a VPN to watch these.

      Are they trialling the 20 min card in the NH, or are they still off for good?

      Some seriously dumb attempts by players in recent weeks; have we always had these head contacts and no/less cards, or are defenders aiming higher, or are the attacking players going lower...?

      Expect the card fests to continue in the TRans Tasman comp

      Every red card from this weekend's Heineken Champions Cup

      Every red card from this weekend's Heineken Champions Cup

      A few years ago, red cards were a rare sight. Flash forwards to this weekend and there have been five red cards dished out across eight...

      Duluth 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • N
        Nevorian last edited by

        Red is becoming more and more prevalent, definitely needs to be a category in between yellow and red and red remains for outright nasty behaviour or where there is clear intent to hurt someone

        taniwharugby 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
        • taniwharugby
          taniwharugby @Nevorian last edited by taniwharugby

          @Nevorian IMO, they need to find a better way to deal with offences, sure a punch, kick head butt etc deserve the full extent of the law, however, it still doesnt sit well with me as a paying fan watching a game where some dick knees someone in the head in the 15th minute, the 80 minute match should be all but ruined for all those watching, whether my team has 15 or 14.

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • NTA
            NTA last edited by

            The bigger issue for me is judiciary sentencing.

            Some bloke whacks a guy in the head with his shoulder, at pace.
            World Rugby says we're going to protect the head, so have a red card.
            Judiciary says have a 50% reduction on the 6 week entry point because you've never been to the judiciary before.

            Regardless of whether it's 78 minutes, 20 minutes, or 2 minutes, you have to ask whether the punishment fits the crime.

            taniwharugby 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
            • taniwharugby
              taniwharugby @NTA last edited by

              @NTA kinda at the heart of it really isn't it.

              People say the red card and not coming back should be the deterrent to thuggish behaviour, but for me, the bigger picture should be the multi week ban and a fine (relative to one's earnings from the game)

              Right now the balance is wrong IMO.

              nzzp 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
              • ACT Crusader
                ACT Crusader last edited by

                More of the disincentive should be at the judiciary / tribunal than the actual game. AFL has got it right. A player is reported and then the mere threat of being suspended and then losing your spot in the team seems to be a pretty strong deterrent.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                • nzzp
                  nzzp @taniwharugby last edited by

                  @taniwharugby honestly, I want the risk reward to be so clear that people don't attempt high cleanouts. Right now there is still reward if it goes ok. There shouldn't be... Everyone should know the act gets punished big time.

                  I'm an idealist

                  NTA 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                  • NTA
                    NTA @nzzp last edited by NTA

                    @nzzp I don't think that is unreasonable - red cards have basically removed the tip tackle from the game, or at least the action where guys try to pick up the ball carrier from below the hips.

                    Now we need to reward lower tackling and punish anything where they lead with the shoulder etc.

                    A 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Duluth
                      Duluth @taniwharugby last edited by Duluth

                      @taniwharugby said in Red Cards:

                      I have seen comments on here about how players will cop a tougher time with NH Refs.

                      I thought the refereeing of foul play in the last NPC was ridiculously lenient (when compared to the rest of the world)

                      That didn't prepare the players or the fans very well for this SR crack down

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
                      • A
                        Anonymous @NTA last edited by

                        @NTA said in Red Cards:

                        @nzzp I don't think that is unreasonable - red cards have basically removed the tip tackle from the game, or at least the action where guys try to pick up the ball carrier from below the hips.

                        Now we need to reward lower tackling and punish anything where they lead with the shoulder etc.

                        There's ones that are completely unnecessary like Scott Barrett's, but then there's ones like the below (from the initial article) where it's a lot harder for the defender to avoid. I don't think you can really solve the problem while still allowing attackers to charge at the defenders like that.

                        Bones 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Bones
                          Bones @Anonymous last edited by

                          @Anonymous hard to avoid? 18 drives up from not very low, clearly going high and then his teammate hits high for good measure.

                          gt12 MiketheSnow A taniwharugby 4 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                          • gt12
                            gt12 @Bones last edited by

                            @Bones said in Red Cards:

                            @Anonymous hard to avoid? 18 drives up from not very low, clearly going high and then his teammate hits high for good measure.

                            Once upon a time you'd go as low as you can in that situation.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                            • MiketheSnow
                              MiketheSnow @Bones last edited by

                              @Bones said in Red Cards:

                              @Anonymous hard to avoid? 18 drives up from not very low, clearly going high and then his teammate hits high for good measure.

                              Yep

                              Both of the dirty fluffybunnies should have gone

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • NTA
                                NTA last edited by NTA

                                Both had time to lower body height and mitigate it down to a yellow.

                                Lazy at best.

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • A
                                  Anonymous @Bones last edited by

                                  @Bones said in Red Cards:

                                  @Anonymous hard to avoid? 18 drives up from not very low, clearly going high and then his teammate hits high for good measure.

                                  By hard to avoid, I'm meaning without either putting himself at more risk or giving up easy metres and quick ball there's no way to completely prevent it from ever happening. Yes, of course he could have avoided it by going lower or executing better but players are going to make mistakes or misjudgements when tackling. How many similar tackles are made but are fine because there's no head contact? If you're only penalised when it goes wrong, is that going to stop players from trying to get it right?

                                  The current approach seems to incentivise better execution rather than tackling lower. And it doesn't seem like there as been much/any improvement in execution.

                                  Bones 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • Bones
                                    Bones @Anonymous last edited by

                                    @Anonymous said in Red Cards:

                                    or giving up easy metres and quick ball

                                    This is the straw man. It's the point! If you can't do something legally, it doesn't mean you can get away with doing it illegally, I don't think it's something that's hard to understand.

                                    The alternative is saying it's ok to pull down lineout jumpers because you couldn't get the ball, ok to tackle players without the ball because otherwise they were going to do damage to your team, ok to deliberately knock a ball forward because otherwise it was going to an unmarked opposition player.

                                    booboo NTA 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                    • booboo
                                      booboo @Bones last edited by

                                      @Bones said in Red Cards:

                                      @Anonymous said in Red Cards:

                                      or giving up easy metres and quick ball

                                      This is the straw man. It's the point! If you can't do something legally, it doesn't mean you can get away with doing it illegally, I don't think it's something that's hard to understand.

                                      The alternative is saying it's ok to pull down lineout jumpers because you couldn't get the ball, ok to tackle players without the ball because otherwise they were going to do damage to your team, ok to deliberately knock a ball forward because otherwise it was going to an unmarked opposition player.

                                      Upvote

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                      • taniwharugby
                                        taniwharugby @Bones last edited by taniwharugby

                                        @Bones yeah I was surprised the hooker got away with his tackle, for me he was always coming in too high, the other guy did start lower, even though he got it completely wrong too.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                        • NTA
                                          NTA @Bones last edited by

                                          @Bones said in Red Cards:

                                          @Anonymous said in Red Cards:

                                          or giving up easy metres and quick ball

                                          This is the straw man. It's the point! If you can't do something legally, it doesn't mean you can get away with doing it illegally, I don't think it's something that's hard to understand.

                                          The alternative is saying it's ok to pull down lineout jumpers because you couldn't get the ball, ok to tackle players without the ball because otherwise they were going to do damage to your team, ok to deliberately knock a ball forward because otherwise it was going to an unmarked opposition player.

                                          At some point players are going to have to accept that conceding points/metres/possession is the only outcome available at that point in the game, and fix it at a future point in the game.

                                          nzzp 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                          • nzzp
                                            nzzp @NTA last edited by

                                            @NTA said in Red Cards:

                                            @Bones said in Red Cards:

                                            @Anonymous said in Red Cards:

                                            or giving up easy metres and quick ball

                                            This is the straw man. It's the point! If you can't do something legally, it doesn't mean you can get away with doing it illegally, I don't think it's something that's hard to understand.

                                            The alternative is saying it's ok to pull down lineout jumpers because you couldn't get the ball, ok to tackle players without the ball because otherwise they were going to do damage to your team, ok to deliberately knock a ball forward because otherwise it was going to an unmarked opposition player.

                                            At some point players are going to have to accept that conceding points/metres/possession is the only outcome available at that point in the game, and fix it at a future point in the game.

                                            ... And get those meters themselves.

                                            What I would be doing is aggressively penalizing people who voluntarily drop into contact or carry low. You get protection, you don't get to carry leading with your head

                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                            • Nepia
                                              Nepia last edited by Nepia

                                              I guess frequent red cards is the new normal these days.

                                              I never have a problem with the deliberate action ones, but think there’s a place for the NRL style on report. They’re stealing everything else from league at the moment so why not that too!

                                              taniwharugby 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                              • taniwharugby
                                                taniwharugby @Nepia last edited by

                                                @Nepia the key for me, is that we have an even contest of 15 v 15 for as much of a match as possible, I dont want to see 15 v 13/14...even if it works in my teams favour.

                                                Do rugby players get fined for cards, they do in NRL dont they?

                                                Obviously in a comp like the NPC where some players earn $10k for thier season, so it needs to be relative.

                                                Chris B. N 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                • Chris B.
                                                  Chris B. @taniwharugby last edited by

                                                  @taniwharugby said in Red Cards:

                                                  @Nepia the key for me, is that we have an even contest of 15 v 15 for as much of a match as possible, I dont want to see 15 v 13/14...even if it works in my teams favour.

                                                  Might work for your team this week, but then there's next week and the week after....

                                                  Brownlie and Meads were the only red carded All Blacks in 100+ years. Now you've got rule changes that result in three red cards in a weekend and yet some test rugby administrators are dumb enough not to have woken up that the nature of the game has been fundamentally changed.

                                                  The 20 minutes with 14 players and then replacement is obviously required.

                                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                  • chimoaus
                                                    chimoaus last edited by chimoaus

                                                    I think the best option is to go on report and the player is replaced instantly and not to return. That way it stays 15v15 and the offending teams reserves come on earlier. So, you don't have a yellow or red, simply any reported player is replaced.

                                                    To avoid the player purposely getting a yellow to save a game, some sort of minimum suspension and fine might make them think twice. You could also have some sort of point penalty such as 3 points for the opposing team if your player is put on report.

                                                    Clearly the current system is broken, and an entire rethink is required because it is currently ruining the rugby product.

                                                    Doesn't basketball have this sort of system with fouls, perhaps any cynical yellows are just an instant 3 points plus an attacking scrum or kick to touch. Two fouls or cynical play and you are replaced.

                                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                    • chimoaus
                                                      chimoaus last edited by chimoaus

                                                      Also 4 weeks for Scott Barretts brain implosion seems a little short to me. That was one of the worst shoulder to heads I have seen in a long time.

                                                      Kirwan MN5 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                                      • Kirwan
                                                        Kirwan @chimoaus last edited by

                                                        @chimoaus said in Red Cards:

                                                        Also 4 weeks for Scott Barretts brain implosion seems a little short to me. That was one of the worst shoulder to heads I have seen in a long time.

                                                        Very, very lucky. Should have been six for that.

                                                        taniwharugby A 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                        • taniwharugby
                                                          taniwharugby @Kirwan last edited by

                                                          @Kirwan it was 6...but got reduced to 4 cos.

                                                          chimoaus Kirwan 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                          • chimoaus
                                                            chimoaus @taniwharugby last edited by

                                                            @taniwharugby said in Red Cards:

                                                            @Kirwan it was 6...but got reduced to 4 cos.

                                                            It's like when my wife tells me it's on sale, the retail price is irrelevant, it's what you end up paying that is important.

                                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                            • Kirwan
                                                              Kirwan @taniwharugby last edited by

                                                              @taniwharugby said in Red Cards:

                                                              @Kirwan it was 6...but got reduced to 4 cos.

                                                              Not much of a disincentive is it. For that sort of clear thuggery, no reductions should be made. He had so much time to pull out of that.

                                                              Was genuinely upsetting to watch Hodgman writhing on the ground after that.

                                                              Crazy Horse 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                              • A
                                                                Anonymous @Kirwan last edited by

                                                                @Kirwan said in Red Cards:

                                                                @chimoaus said in Red Cards:

                                                                Also 4 weeks for Scott Barretts brain implosion seems a little short to me. That was one of the worst shoulder to heads I have seen in a long time.

                                                                Very, very lucky. Should have been six months for that.

                                                                FTFY

                                                                A few weeks off in the middle of the season to rest and recovery from any minor niggles while still getting paid isn't really a punishment.

                                                                taniwharugby 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
                                                                • taniwharugby
                                                                  taniwharugby @Anonymous last edited by

                                                                  @Anonymous which is why I feel there should be an appropriate financial impact too...I mean many of these players are married right, imagine them having to tell the wife he got a $50k fine for being a dumb arse 😉

                                                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                  • MN5
                                                                    MN5 @chimoaus last edited by

                                                                    @chimoaus said in Red Cards:

                                                                    Also 4 weeks for Scott Barretts brain implosion seems a little short to me. That was one of the worst shoulder to heads I have seen in a long time.

                                                                    Scott Barrett is this generations Troy Flavell.

                                                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                                    • Crazy Horse
                                                                      Crazy Horse @Kirwan last edited by

                                                                      @Kirwan said in Red Cards:

                                                                      @taniwharugby said in Red Cards:

                                                                      @Kirwan it was 6...but got reduced to 4 cos.

                                                                      Not much of a disincentive is it. For that sort of clear thuggery, no reductions should be made. He had so much time to pull out of that.

                                                                      Was genuinely upsetting to watch Hodgman writhing on the ground after that.

                                                                      Not disagreeing with you about Barrett pulling out, but on a side note I wish they would also replay these things in 'real time' so we can get a better feel as to how much time players actually have.

                                                                      taniwharugby Chris B. 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                                      • taniwharugby
                                                                        taniwharugby @Crazy Horse last edited by

                                                                        @Crazy-Horse which is part of the problem, the ref and TMO are making decisions based on what they see, while under time pressure to get back to the game...sure they take thier time, but when you have the ref looking at it on a big screen while talking to a guy watching it on his computer/TV about it...

                                                                        Leaving these kinds of decisions in the hands of the judiciary who are not constrained by time should be where they are heading.

                                                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                                        • Toddy
                                                                          Toddy last edited by

                                                                          Hodgman only got three weeks last year. He actually had to jump to shoulder the dude in the head. That's a complete dog act but only worth three weeks apparently.

                                                                          Kirwan 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                          • Kirwan
                                                                            Kirwan @Toddy last edited by

                                                                            @Toddy said in Red Cards:

                                                                            Hodgman only got three weeks last year. He actually had to jump to shoulder the dude in the head. That's a complete dog act but only worth three weeks apparently.

                                                                            Hodgman getting a red card last year doesn't make Scott Barrett's thuggery any better.

                                                                            Toddy 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                                            • Toddy
                                                                              Toddy @Kirwan last edited by

                                                                              @Kirwan Agree. But it does show a history of outright dog acts getting too short a time on the sidelines.

                                                                              Kirwan 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                                              • Kirwan
                                                                                Kirwan @Toddy last edited by

                                                                                @Toddy said in Red Cards:

                                                                                @Kirwan Agree. But it does show a history of outright dog acts getting too short a time on the sidelines.

                                                                                I think both that one above and Scott's should have been a hard six weeks at least.

                                                                                Perhaps a team losing a competition point for every two red cards would encorage better technique or less risk taking?

                                                                                Bones 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                                                • Bones
                                                                                  Bones @Kirwan last edited by

                                                                                  @Kirwan said in Red Cards:

                                                                                  @Toddy said in Red Cards:

                                                                                  @Kirwan Agree. But it does show a history of outright dog acts getting too short a time on the sidelines.

                                                                                  I think both that one above and Scott's should have been a hard six weeks at least.

                                                                                  Perhaps a team losing a competition point for every two red cards would encorage better technique or less risk taking?

                                                                                  Maybe they've already got it sorted behind the scenes? Barrett gets to be KTFO next year and carted off so he sees the error of his ways. Just like Hodgman

                                                                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                                                  • D
                                                                                    Dolamite last edited by

                                                                                    How Aumua wasn’t red carded still baffles me, TMO reviewed it and said there was nothing in it even though Evans had a clear black eye

                                                                                    chimoaus 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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