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    All Black captains winning %

    Sports Talk
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    • Stag
      Stag last edited by

      Interesting points;
      -Buck was just an outstanding leader
      -Richie was our greatest ever captain
      -Thorne was a remarkable leader coming in after a sustained period of poor All Black results, and set the foundations for the success that followed with Umaga & MaCaw
      -Cane not even registering, but Whitelock does, even thought they have captained the All Blacks largely over the same era.

      All Black Captains with
      Test Winning Percentage
      Tests Captained and Period

      1. Buck Shelford 96% 14
        1988 to 1990

      2. Richie McCaw 89% 110 2004 to 2015

      3. Andy Dalton 88% 17
        1981 to 1985

      4. Rueben Thorne 87% 23 2002 to 2007

      5. Tana Umaga 86% 21
        2004 to 2005

      6. Kieran Read 85% 52
        2012 to 2019

      7. Brian Lochore 83% 18
        1966 to 1970

      8. Sam Whitelock 83% 18
        2017 to 2022

      9. David Kirk 82% 11
        1986 to 1987

      10. Gary Whetton 80% 15 1990 to 1991

      11. Anton Oliver 80% 10
        2001

      12. Graham Mourie 79% 19 Tests 1977 to 1982

      13. Wilson Whineray 78%
        30 1958 to 1965

      14. Sean Fitzpatrick 77% 51 1992 to 1997

      15. Ian Kirkpatrick 72% 9
        1972 to 1973

      16. Todd Blackadder 70% 10 2000

      All Black Captains under 70% winning ratio not included and minimum 9 tests as captain required

      Machpants MN5 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • Machpants
        Machpants @Stag last edited by

        @Stag can you list those that are less than 70%? Minimum 9 is fine, but name and shame!

        Kiwiwomble 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • MN5
          MN5 @Stag last edited by MN5

          @Stag said in All Black captains winning %:

          Interesting points;
          -Buck was just an outstanding leader
          -Richie was our greatest ever captain
          -Thorne was a remarkable leader coming in after a sustained period of poor All Black results, and set the foundations for the success that followed with Umaga & MaCaw
          -Cane not even registering, but Whitelock does, even thought they have captained the All Blacks largely over the same era.

          All Black Captains with
          Test Winning Percentage
          Tests Captained and Period

          1. Buck Shelford 96% 14
            1988 to 1990

          2. Richie McCaw 89% 110 2004 to 2015

          3. Andy Dalton 88% 17
            1981 to 1985

          4. Rueben Thorne 87% 23 2002 to 2007

          5. Tana Umaga 86% 21
            2004 to 2005

          6. Kieran Read 85% 52
            2012 to 2019

          7. Brian Lochore 83% 18
            1966 to 1970

          8. Sam Whitelock 83% 18
            2017 to 2022

          9. David Kirk 82% 11
            1986 to 1987

          10. Gary Whetton 80% 15 1990 to 1991

          11. Anton Oliver 80% 10
            2001

          12. Graham Mourie 79% 19 Tests 1977 to 1982

          13. Wilson Whineray 78%
            30 1958 to 1965

          14. Sean Fitzpatrick 77% 51 1992 to 1997

          15. Ian Kirkpatrick 72% 9
            1972 to 1973

          16. Todd Blackadder 70% 10 2000

          All Black Captains under 70% winning ratio not included and minimum 9 tests as captain required

          Ah right, I was about to get offended on Paul Hendersons behalf but I wonโ€™t now

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • Kiwiwomble
            Kiwiwomble @Machpants last edited by

            @Machpants said in All Black captains winning %:

            @Stag can you list those that are less than 70%? Minimum 9 is fine, but name and shame!

            sam cane ๐Ÿ™„

            @Stag said in All Black captains winning %:

            -Thorne was a remarkable leader coming in after a sustained period of poor All Black results, and set the foundations for the success that followed with Umaga & MaCaw

            would we say remarkable? 23 games over 6 seasons seems very light, was he injured lots?

            mariner4life Stag R 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • mariner4life
              mariner4life @Kiwiwomble last edited by

              @Kiwiwomble said in All Black captains winning %:

              would we say remarkable? 23 games over 6 seasons seems very light, was he injured lots?

              Tana took over as captain in 2004 and he was out of the team a lot.

              Kiwiwomble 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
              • Kiwiwomble
                Kiwiwomble @mariner4life last edited by

                @mariner4life truly remarkable ๐Ÿ˜‰

                mariner4life 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • Stag
                  Stag @Kiwiwomble last edited by

                  @Kiwiwomble 22 games in his stint as captain and then filled in as captain for one game some years later which created that anomaly

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • mariner4life
                    mariner4life @Kiwiwomble last edited by

                    @Kiwiwomble said in All Black captains winning %:

                    @mariner4life truly remarkable ๐Ÿ˜‰

                    look, let the Cantabs have their little fluff piece.

                    the only "remarkable" thing to come from these stats is

                    Richie's record will stand for all time

                    Test matches used to be considerably more rare

                    Stag 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                    • Stag
                      Stag @mariner4life last edited by

                      @mariner4life test matches were certainly more rare, but that doesnโ€™t have an effect on the % of wins.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • A
                        ARHS last edited by

                        Would have thought Taine Randell, Anton Oliver and Fred Allen had difficult patches as captain. Are their stats there? Wouldn't have thought Cane would be much below 70%. He had a draw too.

                        Kiwiwomble booboo Victor Meldrew 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Kiwiwomble
                          Kiwiwomble @ARHS last edited by

                          @ARHS anton is there, 80%

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • R
                            reddog @Kiwiwomble last edited by

                            @Kiwiwomble he played 50 tests - captained nearly half of them. Lost his squad place when dropped as captain for Tana. Came back and captained a couple more at the start of Richie's reign. He was a pretty successful captain until the '03 semi as he won back the Bledisloe to start our current 20-year hold on that after we couldn't get it back after losing it in 1998!

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Crucial
                              Crucial last edited by

                              Rueben Thorne was captain? I canโ€™t recall seeing him.

                              O 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
                              • O
                                Old Samurai Jack @Crucial last edited by

                                @Crucial Last minute lineout in Bledisloe. Called himself, took it, and the rest is history!
                                Grand leadership right there!!!!

                                #I know you're taking the piss but I really wanted to reshare that beautiful scene.

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                • Dan54
                                  Dan54 last edited by Dan54

                                  Shows why you can sometimes read too much into stats, I mean loved Buck as captain and player, but he was captaining ABs when the rest of world was so far behind, and so poor in may cases it was stupid. I always thought even the first WC was such a foregone conclusion, I struggle to look bac on it as very good tournament. As in instance I will remember going to a local park in Levin to watch Wales have a trainig run (Wales were beaten semi-finalists) , the locals were asked to supply a few front rowers etc for opposition, there were 2 local senior first players propping (not sure but one may of been a rep player for Horowhenua), the hooker was from my club's 2nd team, and Derek Quinnell (I think forward coach for Wales) actually first asked our players to ease up a bit as Welsh pack was getting done. As I say they were deserved semi finalists, and rest of team were no better than their forwards, it was embarassing to see quality of teams from team from particularly Britain , but rest of world seemed so far behind us in skills! Test rugby became very boring for a few years! I think at times we have had outstanding captains etc, just that era you couldn't tell, the likes of Richie etc were great, and I thought his whole attitude to game and training was exceptional, and one of reasons he was best player I have seen.

                                  Chester Draws 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • Nepia
                                    Nepia last edited by

                                    Since the OP seems like a thinly veiled Cane takedown and Whitelock (and Suitcase) fluff then we really need to a do a deeper analysis.

                                    e.g.:

                                    What's Whitelock's Foster only stats?

                                    And how many of the Cane losses included Whitelock in the team as a senior player?

                                    Bovidae 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                    • Bovidae
                                      Bovidae @Nepia last edited by Bovidae

                                      @Nepia Two of the most one-sided losses in recent years (Ireland and France in 2021) were with Whitelock as captain.

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                      • antipodean
                                        antipodean last edited by

                                        Are these stats accounting for the relative opposition?

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • booboo
                                          booboo @ARHS last edited by

                                          @ARHS said in All Black captains winning %:

                                          Would have thought Taine Randell, Anton Oliver and Fred Allen had difficult patches as captain. Are their stats there? Wouldn't have thought Cane would be much below 70%. He had a draw too.

                                          Taine endured 1998

                                          A canefan 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • A
                                            ARHS @booboo last edited by

                                            @booboo said in All Black captains winning %:

                                            @ARHS said in All Black captains winning %:

                                            Would have thought Taine Randell, Anton Oliver and Fred Allen had difficult patches as captain. Are their stats there? Wouldn't have thought Cane would be much below 70%. He had a draw too.

                                            Taine endured 1998

                                            Yep. None of the captains would have excelled during the period he had if appointed at his age.

                                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                            • canefan
                                              canefan @booboo last edited by

                                              @booboo said in All Black captains winning %:

                                              @ARHS said in All Black captains winning %:

                                              Would have thought Taine Randell, Anton Oliver and Fred Allen had difficult patches as captain. Are their stats there? Wouldn't have thought Cane would be much below 70%. He had a draw too.

                                              Taine endured 1998

                                              As did we.....

                                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                              • M
                                                Mr Fish last edited by

                                                On the current guys:

                                                Sam Whitelock has played 18 games as captain and won 14 of them (78%) - not sure where 83% comes from?
                                                He has played 14 games as captain against T1 sides and won 10 of them (71%).

                                                Sam Cane has played 19 games as captain and won 12 of them (63%).
                                                He has played 17 games as captain against T1 sides and won 10 of them (59%).

                                                But under Foster, Whitelock has played nine games as captain against T1 sides and won six of them (67%).
                                                Under Foster, Cane has played 15 games as captain against T1 sides and won eight of them (53%).

                                                N 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                                • Victor Meldrew
                                                  Victor Meldrew @ARHS last edited by

                                                  @ARHS said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                  Would have thought Taine Randell, Anton Oliver and Fred Allen had difficult patches as captain. Are their stats there? Wouldn't have thought Cane would be much below 70%. He had a draw too.

                                                  Interesting that Sam Whitelock rates higher than Mourie & Whineray as I'd rate those two as near the top of the pile based on their legacy.

                                                  In Whineray's case the team Lochore inherited was utterly dominant for 7 or 8 years and in Mourie's case, he took on an absolute crock of shite that was the 70's AB's and moulded them into a bloody good team. Ditto for McCaw who used the 2007 game that didn't happen as motivation for a super-human effort in 2011.

                                                  booboo 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                  • canefan
                                                    canefan last edited by

                                                    Buck must have the highest win %? I can't remember him losing a game

                                                    Rapido 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                    • booboo
                                                      booboo @Victor Meldrew last edited by

                                                      @Victor-Meldrew said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                      @ARHS said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                      Would have thought Taine Randell, Anton Oliver and Fred Allen had difficult patches as captain. Are their stats there? Wouldn't have thought Cane would be much below 70%. He had a draw too.

                                                      Interesting that Sam Whitelock rates higher than Mourie & Whineray as I'd rate those two as near the top of the pile based on their legacy.

                                                      In Whineray's case the team Lochore inherited was utterly dominant for 7 or 8 years and in Mourie's case, he took on an absolute crock of shite that was the 70's AB's and moulded them into a bloody good team. Ditto for McCaw who used the 2007 game that didn't happen as motivation for a super-human effort in 2011.

                                                      Function of only playing tests against the full IRB member countries?

                                                      ie., no PIs, Japan, Italy, even Argentina to pad the stats.

                                                      Victor Meldrew 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                      • Victor Meldrew
                                                        Victor Meldrew @booboo last edited by

                                                        @booboo said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                        @Victor-Meldrew said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                        @ARHS said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                        Would have thought Taine Randell, Anton Oliver and Fred Allen had difficult patches as captain. Are their stats there? Wouldn't have thought Cane would be much below 70%. He had a draw too.

                                                        Interesting that Sam Whitelock rates higher than Mourie & Whineray as I'd rate those two as near the top of the pile based on their legacy.

                                                        In Whineray's case the team Lochore inherited was utterly dominant for 7 or 8 years and in Mourie's case, he took on an absolute crock of shite that was the 70's AB's and moulded them into a bloody good team. Ditto for McCaw who used the 2007 game that didn't happen as motivation for a super-human effort in 2011.

                                                        Function of only playing tests against the full IRB member countries?

                                                        ie., no PIs, Japan, Italy, even Argentina to pad the stats.

                                                        Good point, so possibly. But I guess with Whineray and (to a lesser extent) Mourie you need to factor in plenty of easier games to build combinations and teamwork.

                                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                        • Chester Draws
                                                          Chester Draws @Dan54 last edited by

                                                          @Dan54 said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                          Shows why you can sometimes read too much into stats, I mean loved Buck as captain and player, but he was captaining ABs when the rest of world was so far behind, and so poor in may cases it was stupid. I always thought even the first WC was such a foregone conclusion,

                                                          Not that Buck captained the 1st RWC.

                                                          Shelford was a remarkable captain, the best I have ever seen, as an on-field captain (because there were some issues in the other parts of the role). Sure the ABs were almost unbeatable anyway, but his sacking saw a period of almost immediate decline, much of that around direction, because the players were largely the same.

                                                          North Harbour were in a different league when he played for them. So much more steel.

                                                          He did great things with Northampton too.

                                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                                          • Rapido
                                                            Rapido @canefan last edited by Rapido

                                                            @canefan said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                            Buck must have the highest win %? I can't remember him losing a game

                                                            Just 1 draw, 2nd test v Aus 1988. Won 13, drew 1.

                                                            Or do you mean "games" as in the tests + games metric?

                                                            canefan 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                            • canefan
                                                              canefan @Rapido last edited by

                                                              @Rapido said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                              @canefan said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                              Buck must have the highest win %? I can't remember him losing a game

                                                              Just 1 draw, 2nd test v Aus 1988. Won 13, drew 1.

                                                              Or do you mean "games" as in the tests + games metric?

                                                              Nope. Figured it was a draw. He presided over a glorious era in AB rugby.

                                                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                              • N
                                                                nostrildamus @Mr Fish last edited by

                                                                @Mr-Fish said in All Black captains winning %:

                                                                On the current guys:

                                                                Sam Whitelock has played 18 games as captain and won 14 of them (78%) - not sure where 83% comes from?
                                                                He has played 14 games as captain against T1 sides and won 10 of them (71%).

                                                                Sam Cane has played 19 games as captain and won 12 of them (63%).
                                                                He has played 17 games as captain against T1 sides and won 10 of them (59%).

                                                                But under Foster, Whitelock has played nine games as captain against T1 sides and won six of them (67%).
                                                                Under Foster, Cane has played 15 games as captain against T1 sides and won eight of them (53%).

                                                                Isn't it possibly complicated by the pre-Ryan and Ryan-coaching forward periods?

                                                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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