All Blacks 2024
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
I'll make a note to have a stern word with CF Sr the next time I see him, and correct him ! 😁. In his defence, perhaps I misunderstood. But I remember him telling me how they had very good backs on that tour
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
I'll make a note to have a stern word with CF Sr the next time I see him, and correct him ! 😁. In his defence, perhaps I misunderstood. But I remember him telling me how they had very good backs on that tour
Oh I actually think that's a historical myth outside of CF Sr - and they did have cracking backs from all reports. But it's like 1970 erased all memories of the previous 3 years.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
I'll make a note to have a stern word with CF Sr the next time I see him, and correct him ! 😁. In his defence, perhaps I misunderstood. But I remember him telling me how they had very good backs on that tour
SJ Sr told me the same thing. They certainly won over the NZ rugby public at the time.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
Apart from off set piece, is there such a thing now? And, my comment stands for rugby players, it's not positional.
I also can't see how we'll have effective phase play if we don't have forwards who can effectively handle the ball, that's exactly where the NH has caught up.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
Apart from off set piece, is there such a thing now? And, my comment stands for rugby players, it's not positional.
I also can't see how we'll have effective phase play if we don't have forwards who can effectively handle the ball, that's exactly where the NH has caught up.
Yup forwards should mostly do moves with forwards.
The Crusaders used the same pattern the ABs used extensively this year and had the same issues. The Blues rarely used the 'out the back door' pattern. The proof is in the pudding.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
Apart from off set piece, is there such a thing now? And, my comment stands for rugby players, it's not positional.
I also can't see how we'll have effective phase play if we don't have forwards who can effectively handle the ball, that's exactly where the NH has caught up.
Yup forwards should mostly do moves with forwards.
The Crusaders used the same pattern the ABs used extensively this year and had the same issues. The Blues rarely used the 'out the back door' pattern. The proof is in the pudding.
Moving goalposts here.
Even the Blues Attack structure has forwards participating in phase play.
So, is your point that you don't like our pod system with down runners and the guy on the wrap?
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back
Fucking ALL of this.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
Without getting into arguments, as someone who was around in 60s, even as a kid, I seem to recall a few handy backs in those days, remember being impressed with Ian McRae and Davis in midfield, remember seeing them play when on a school rugby trip to Hawkes Bay. But the honest truth is there was bigger all decent tv coverage (none live) and so most was what we heard or read about as most people saw 1 test a year if they were lucky.
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Great analysis.
The '70's were an awful, awful time which makes these last 4 or 5 years look like a golden age. It took years until the penny dropped. That said, the 3-man scrum was devised by the new blood and was arguably a turning point - it showed someone was sitting down and doing some smart, original, innovative thinking.
Where are the leaders and coaches able to do that today?
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
We had very much moved away from a 10 man game under Fred Allen. When we lost a few games, some NZ coaches wanted to go back to 10 man rugby while others like Bill Freeman and Eric Watson were already playing Lions-style rugby and wanted to move forward.
We were shit until the old guard lost the argument.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet It sounds like you haven't been following NZ Rugby all that long and so have not had to endure mediocrity before.
It's not apathy or defeatism to accept that some of the traditional advantages we had over other nations have been lost due to the game going professional. As our national sport we were more 'professional' than other countries. We paid attention to things like nutrition training etc more than others. We worked on skills for all 15 players not just the fancy dan backs.
These advantages have gone and are unlikely to return. We can't expect to be fitter, faster, stronger than our opponents. NH props no longer carry beer kegs around with them as they lumber from set piece to set piece. Our opponents are also as skilled in the main as we are. Through more exposure to our players and coaches the bar has been raised.
This is nothing new. Aussie improved dramatically once their players got constant game experience against ours. Look at Argentina since joining the RC.
Meanwhile the game in NZ has stagnated. We are not getting exposure below test level to different playing styles. Our coaching has lost its edge. We exported a lot of IP yet we seem to think (institutionally) that we can learn nothing from overseas.
Yet none of this in unprecedented our unable to improve very quickly. The 70's were the worst years of AB results in my lifetime. We were shockingly poor all too often. Yet once we got the right coach and drafted in some young blood to the team we went from packing down 3 man scrums because were were so poor to Grand Slam winners in just over 12 months.
Sound familiar?
Keep the faith.
Funny how things come around. My dad remembers the star studded B&I Lions tour of 1971, where they showed us how to play champagne running rugby. Historically we were 10 man exponents.
I feel we have made strides, and there is a lot of young talent coming through. But Razor has to get out of his own way and stop focussing on trivialities like pining for overseas players and such
TBH, I think that's a slight historical myth, Fred Allen's 1960s ABs were exponents of running rugby.
On Razor, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not writing him off after this year, but I'm still criticising him for what I see as poor decisions most especially Sotutu and his wanking on about overseas players just to get an overrated 10 back.
I'll make a note to have a stern word with CF Sr the next time I see him, and correct him ! 😁. In his defence, perhaps I misunderstood. But I remember him telling me how they had very good backs on that tour
SJ Sr told me the same thing. They certainly won over the NZ rugby public at the time.
Great, great team - on and off the field. Made loads of friends.
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@Victor-Meldrew that's one helluva revelation, maybe that's for the hot takes thread?
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
Apart from off set piece, is there such a thing now? And, my comment stands for rugby players, it's not positional.
I also can't see how we'll have effective phase play if we don't have forwards who can effectively handle the ball, that's exactly where the NH has caught up.
Yup forwards should mostly do moves with forwards.
The Crusaders used the same pattern the ABs used extensively this year and had the same issues. The Blues rarely used the 'out the back door' pattern. The proof is in the pudding.
Moving goalposts here.
Even the Blues Attack structure has forwards participating in phase play.
So, is your point that you don't like our pod system with down runners and the guy on the wrap?
I've said that many times about the 'out the back door' play.
The Blues forwards are focused in the narrow channels.
None of what I have said contradicts that. Not sure how you think it's moving the goal posts but what ever.
The wrap around tight forwards is a rubbish play when used over and over again. It leads to handling errors and backs not running hard and straight but sideways.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
That comment I meant for the backs. That's still a problem for them too when it shouldn't be. Tight forwards shouldn't be expected to assist in backline moves
Apart from off set piece, is there such a thing now? And, my comment stands for rugby players, it's not positional.
I also can't see how we'll have effective phase play if we don't have forwards who can effectively handle the ball, that's exactly where the NH has caught up.
Yup forwards should mostly do moves with forwards.
The Crusaders used the same pattern the ABs used extensively this year and had the same issues. The Blues rarely used the 'out the back door' pattern. The proof is in the pudding.
Moving goalposts here.
Even the Blues Attack structure has forwards participating in phase play.
So, is your point that you don't like our pod system with down runners and the guy on the wrap?
I've said that many times about the 'out the back door' play.
The Blues forwards are focused in the narrow channels.
None of what I have said contradicts that. Not sure how you think it's moving the goal posts but what ever.
The wrap around tight forwards is a rubbish play when used over and over again. It leads to handling errors and backs not running hard and straight but sideways.
You have to go up the guts to earn the space to go wide. That's been a key principle in rugby since ages!
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Saw this online and thought it was interesting. All relative of course but worth a share so typed it out below. Hope it’s easy enough to comprehend. One thing we can all agree on for 2024 is that there is plenty of room for improvement.
ALL BLACKS HEAD COACHES - 1ST 14 TESTS IN CHARGE
SCOTT ROBERTSON - Played 14, Won 10, Lost 4, Win percent 71%, Vs top 5 sides 2/6
IAN FOSTER - Played 14, Won 11, Draw 1, Lost 2, Win Percent 78%, Vs Top 5 Sides 3/3
SIR STEVE HANSEN - Played 14, Won 12, Draw 1, Lost 1, Win percent 85%, Vs Top Sides 4/6
SIR GRAHAM HENRY - Played 14, Won 12, Lost 2, Win percent 85%, Vs Top 5 sides 5/7
JOHN MITCHELL - Played 14, Won 11, Drew 1, Lost 2, Win percent 78%, Vs Top 5 sides 3/6
