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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Bit of a weird law in the first place, kind of a hey look I have resolved this massive non-issue!
Further to the "its a non-issue!"
What a load of clap trap
Not using the bathroom they want is not causing suicides. These people have serious mental problems to even get to the point that they want to change sex. They need mental health care and supportive structures, not society giving in to their whims over bathrooms and pro nouns. Do people seriously think the suicide rate amongst these people will drop if they get to use the bathroom they want or be called a 'zwe'?
Nope. They are unwell and need proper help to understand and cope with the way they feel.whoa! Are you seriously saying that people with gender identity issues are mentally ill?
Yes I am . Whoa... are you saying they are not???
And don't start me on the blacks & the gays....
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@gollum said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Bit of a weird law in the first place, kind of a hey look I have resolved this massive non-issue!
Further to the "its a non-issue!"
What a load of clap trap
Not using the bathroom they want is not causing suicides. These people have serious mental problems to even get to the point that they want to change sex. They need mental health care and supportive structures, not society giving in to their whims over bathrooms and pro nouns. Do people seriously think the suicide rate amongst these people will drop if they get to use the bathroom they want or be called a 'zwe'?
Nope. They are unwell and need proper help to understand and cope with the way they feel.whoa! Are you seriously saying that people with gender identity issues are mentally ill?
Yes I am . Whoa... are you saying they are not???
And don't start me on the blacks & the gays....
and the lefties...terrible, terrible mental illnesses, all of them
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Bit of a weird law in the first place, kind of a hey look I have resolved this massive non-issue!
Further to the "its a non-issue!"
What a load of clap trap
Not using the bathroom they want is not causing suicides. These people have serious mental problems to even get to the point that they want to change sex. They need mental health care and supportive structures, not society giving in to their whims over bathrooms and pro nouns. Do people seriously think the suicide rate amongst these people will drop if they get to use the bathroom they want or be called a 'zwe'?
Nope. They are unwell and need proper help to understand and cope with the way they feel.whoa! Are you seriously saying that people with gender identity issues are mentally ill?
Yes I am . Whoa... are you saying they are not???
Correct. And I think you may find that your view is out of step with the psychiatric studies as well.
I guess you would have also been lining up the shock treatment for gays and "hysterical " women?I knew the false equivalence argument would come out as well. It is so predicable and ludicrous. If you want to discuss hysterical women or gays, do so. I am not interested in that. But don't use a logical fallacy to argue your case.
Because some people used to think slapping a person was a good way to calm them down has nothing to do with wether another ocmpletly different situation is a menal illness
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Bit of a weird law in the first place, kind of a hey look I have resolved this massive non-issue!
Further to the "its a non-issue!"
What a load of clap trap
Not using the bathroom they want is not causing suicides. These people have serious mental problems to even get to the point that they want to change sex. They need mental health care and supportive structures, not society giving in to their whims over bathrooms and pro nouns. Do people seriously think the suicide rate amongst these people will drop if they get to use the bathroom they want or be called a 'zwe'?
Nope. They are unwell and need proper help to understand and cope with the way they feel.whoa! Are you seriously saying that people with gender identity issues are mentally ill?
Yes I am . Whoa... are you saying they are not???
Correct. And I think you may find that your view is out of step with the psychiatric studies as well.
I guess you would have also been lining up the shock treatment for gays and "hysterical " women?I knew the false equivalence argument would come out as well. It is so predicable and ludicrous. If you want to discuss hysterical women or gays, do so. I am not interested in that. But don't use a logical fallacy to argue your case.
It isn't false equivalence at all. Both homosexuality and 'Hysteria' in women were classed once as mental illness.
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Bit of a weird law in the first place, kind of a hey look I have resolved this massive non-issue!
Further to the "its a non-issue!"
What a load of clap trap
Not using the bathroom they want is not causing suicides. These people have serious mental problems to even get to the point that they want to change sex. They need mental health care and supportive structures, not society giving in to their whims over bathrooms and pro nouns. Do people seriously think the suicide rate amongst these people will drop if they get to use the bathroom they want or be called a 'zwe'?
Nope. They are unwell and need proper help to understand and cope with the way they feel.whoa! Are you seriously saying that people with gender identity issues are mentally ill?
Yes I am . Whoa... are you saying they are not???
Correct. And I think you may find that your view is out of step with the psychiatric studies as well.
I guess you would have also been lining up the shock treatment for gays and "hysterical " women?I knew the false equivalence argument would come out as well. It is so predicable and ludicrous. If you want to discuss hysterical women or gays, do so. I am not interested in that. But don't use a logical fallacy to argue your case.
It isn't false equivalence at all. Both homosexuality and 'Hysteria' in women were classed once as mental illness.
Actually that is exactly what it it. You are using a complete logical fallacy. Bi polar is also considered a mental illness... can I use that to support my case? No.. because it is a complete and utterly different scenario. The only thing your 2 examples have in common is that you think they are both not mental illnesses.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Bit of a weird law in the first place, kind of a hey look I have resolved this massive non-issue!
Further to the "its a non-issue!"
What a load of clap trap
Not using the bathroom they want is not causing suicides. These people have serious mental problems to even get to the point that they want to change sex. They need mental health care and supportive structures, not society giving in to their whims over bathrooms and pro nouns. Do people seriously think the suicide rate amongst these people will drop if they get to use the bathroom they want or be called a 'zwe'?
Nope. They are unwell and need proper help to understand and cope with the way they feel.whoa! Are you seriously saying that people with gender identity issues are mentally ill?
Yes I am . Whoa... are you saying they are not???
Correct. And I think you may find that your view is out of step with the psychiatric studies as well.
I guess you would have also been lining up the shock treatment for gays and "hysterical " women?I knew the false equivalence argument would come out as well. It is so predicable and ludicrous. If you want to discuss hysterical women or gays, do so. I am not interested in that. But don't use a logical fallacy to argue your case.
It isn't false equivalence at all. Both homosexuality and 'Hysteria' in women were classed once as mental illness.
Actually that is exactly what it it. You are using a complete logical fallacy. Bi polar is also considered a mental illness... can I use that to support my case? No.. because it is a complete and utterly different scenario. The only thing your 2 examples have in common is that you think they are both not mental illnesses.
No. The psychiatric profession does not think they are mental illnesses, but they once did. Just as they also don't think being transgender is a mental illness but once did.
If you can stop deflecting for a moment, any chance of backing up your claim that transgender people are mentally ill? -
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Bit of a weird law in the first place, kind of a hey look I have resolved this massive non-issue!
Further to the "its a non-issue!"
What a load of clap trap
Not using the bathroom they want is not causing suicides. These people have serious mental problems to even get to the point that they want to change sex. They need mental health care and supportive structures, not society giving in to their whims over bathrooms and pro nouns. Do people seriously think the suicide rate amongst these people will drop if they get to use the bathroom they want or be called a 'zwe'?
Nope. They are unwell and need proper help to understand and cope with the way they feel.whoa! Are you seriously saying that people with gender identity issues are mentally ill?
Yes I am . Whoa... are you saying they are not???
Correct. And I think you may find that your view is out of step with the psychiatric studies as well.
I guess you would have also been lining up the shock treatment for gays and "hysterical " women?I knew the false equivalence argument would come out as well. It is so predicable and ludicrous. If you want to discuss hysterical women or gays, do so. I am not interested in that. But don't use a logical fallacy to argue your case.
It isn't false equivalence at all. Both homosexuality and 'Hysteria' in women were classed once as mental illness.
Actually that is exactly what it it. You are using a complete logical fallacy. Bi polar is also considered a mental illness... can I use that to support my case? No.. because it is a complete and utterly different scenario. The only thing your 2 examples have in common is that you think they are both not mental illnesses.
No. The psychiatric profession does not think they are mental illnesses, but they once did. Just as they also don't think being transgender is a mental illness but once did.
If you can stop deflecting for a moment, any chance of backing up your claim that transgender people are mentally ill?Err some in the psychiatric profession do see it as a mental illness.
In fact the WHO still lists it as a mental illness, sure they are considering changing it, but they havent there is a healthy debate and disagreement about it. You are the one that is painting it as some sort of 'done deal' that psychiatrists think it isnt a mental illness.
Here is a study showing it isn't a mental illnessMore studies are occurring, one study doesn't not a consensus make.. in ANY field, but especially a mental illness study. Especially in a politicised field like transgender.
Here is a trans person who eloquently states why she considers herself to have a mental illness
http://investmentwatchblog.com/i-believe-transgender-is-a-mental-illness/
Can you drop the nonsense claim that I am arguing against all psychiatrists now?
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Bit of a weird law in the first place, kind of a hey look I have resolved this massive non-issue!
Further to the "its a non-issue!"
What a load of clap trap
Not using the bathroom they want is not causing suicides. These people have serious mental problems to even get to the point that they want to change sex. They need mental health care and supportive structures, not society giving in to their whims over bathrooms and pro nouns. Do people seriously think the suicide rate amongst these people will drop if they get to use the bathroom they want or be called a 'zwe'?
Nope. They are unwell and need proper help to understand and cope with the way they feel.whoa! Are you seriously saying that people with gender identity issues are mentally ill?
Yes I am . Whoa... are you saying they are not???
Correct. And I think you may find that your view is out of step with the psychiatric studies as well.
I guess you would have also been lining up the shock treatment for gays and "hysterical " women?I knew the false equivalence argument would come out as well. It is so predicable and ludicrous. If you want to discuss hysterical women or gays, do so. I am not interested in that. But don't use a logical fallacy to argue your case.
It isn't false equivalence at all. Both homosexuality and 'Hysteria' in women were classed once as mental illness.
Actually that is exactly what it it. You are using a complete logical fallacy. Bi polar is also considered a mental illness... can I use that to support my case? No.. because it is a complete and utterly different scenario. The only thing your 2 examples have in common is that you think they are both not mental illnesses.
No. The psychiatric profession does not think they are mental illnesses, but they once did. Just as they also don't think being transgender is a mental illness but once did.
If you can stop deflecting for a moment, any chance of backing up your claim that transgender people are mentally ill?Err some in the psychiatric profession do see it as a mental illness.
IN fat the WHO still lists it as a mental illnnes, sure they are considering changing it, but they havent there is a healthy debate and disagreement about it. You are the one that is painting it as some sort of 'done deal' that psychiatrists think it isnt a mental illness.
Here is a study showing it isn't.More studies are occurring, one study doesn't not a consensus make.. in ANY field, but especially a mental illness study. Especially in a politicised field like transgender.
Here is a trans person who eloquently states why she considers herself to have a mental illness
http://investmentwatchblog.com/i-believe-transgender-is-a-mental-illness/
Can you drop the nonsense claim that I am arguing against all psychiatrists now?
When did I use the word 'all'? Now you are trying to change my comments to suit your stance.
Of course there is never 100% agreement on anything, but you are wrong in asserting that the WHO lists it as a mental illness.Gregory Hartl, a spokesman for the WHO, said the ICD-10 doesn’t really list being transgender as a mental health disease — even if it is located in that chapter.
“The conditions in that block are not mental diseases, and gender incongruence is not classified as a mental disease — although that block is located inside the chapter ‘Mental and Behavioural Disorders,’” Hartl wrote in an email.
An overhaul of the massive code catalog has been in the works for nearly a decade. But the task has taken much longer than anticipated. Originally set to be published in 2012, the release of ICD-11 was pushed back to 2015. Then 2017. The current plan is to bring out the new document in 2018.
The reclassification of being transgender is part of a larger overhaul of the ICD-10. And that process has been hampered by a lack of resources — not to mention the enormous scope of the task — according to an external review committee.
“There have been some delays due to the pioneering nature of the overall endeavour and the limited resources to achieve the visionary aims of many of its component goals,” said a 2015 report by the panel.
Dr. Jack Drescher, a member of a volunteer working group revising the ICD’s section on sexual disorders and sexual health, said most of the group’s work has been conducted electronically. “I don’t think they have a lot of funding for this process.”
When ICD-11 is published, being transgender will be listed in a different part of the document, potentially under conditions related to sexual health, said Drescher, who is a New York psychiatrist and a professor of psychiatry at New York Medical College. “So they’ll be diagnoses, but they won’t be mental disorder diagnoses.”Also this...
The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in US Politics:
Err some in the psychiatric profession do see it as a mental illness.
You are righyt, bats kind of a stretch roping in the WHO, literally ALL evidence says WHO will amend its 1990 guidelines in 2018 to say not a mental illnes. Same way it took till 1987 to officially say the gays weren't mental. The number of specialists still advocating it as a mental illness is in the same ballpark as scientists saying climate change isn't real or black brains are smaller.
The WHO says being transgender is a mental illness. But that’s about to change.
According to the World Health Organization, being transgender is a mental illness.
But that could soon change, as the WHO prepares a new edition of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD), its global codebook that influences disease diagnostic manuals worldwide. The current version, ICD-10, was endorsed in 1990, and ICD-11 is due in 2018.
The proposals to declassify transgender identity as a mental disorder have been approved by each committee that has considered it so far. A study published Tuesday in the journal Lancet Psychiatry, offers up new evidence supporting the change.
A condition is designated as a mental illness when the very fact that you have it causes distress and dysfunction, said Geoffrey Reed, a professor of psychology at the National Autonomous University of Mexico, a consultant on ICD-11 and co-author of the study. The study argues that this is not the case with transgender identity.
In 2014, from April to August, Reed and his team interviewed 250 transgender adults who were receiving transgender-related health services at the Condesa Specialized Clinic in Mexico City. They asked them about their childhoods, when they knew they were transgender, and what kinds of reactions they had gotten from work, school or family.
Reed found that many of the people he interviewed experienced a lot of distress in their lives. Later, using mathematical modeling, he found a good way to predict who was suffering — but the most important determining factor was not being transgender, it was something else.
“We found distress and dysfunction were very powerfully predicted by the experiences of social rejection or violence that people had,” he said. “But they were not actually predicted by gender incongruence itself.”
This finding contradicts the basic classification of a mental illness, which is that “distress or dysfunction are essential elements of the condition,” the paper said.
Reed hopes his work shows that being transgender does not have to equate to suffering. It’s actually the external factors, Reed said, that cause the suffering: the societal stigma, the violence and the prejudices. Remove them, and all that remains is the feeling of “gender incongruence,” the label proposed in ICD-11 in a new chapter called “Conditions Related to Sexual Health,” which will be medically and biologically oriented.
This issue echoes past controversies. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), the psychiatric disorder guidebook, once included homosexuality as a mental illness. In 1973, the diagnosis became “sexual orientation disturbance,” and then disappeared completely in 1987, largely because of gay rights advocates.
Hysteria, an affliction often attributed to women, was in the DSM until 1980. The DSM called transgender identity “sexual deviations” in 1968. In 1980 it was “psychosexual disorders,” and in 1994 it was “sexual and gender identity disorders.” The DSM-5 changed the listing of transgender to “gender dysphoria,” in 2013 (though it remains classified as a mental illness today).
There has been progress, but as long as mental illness continues to be widely stigmatized, Reed said, it’s going to affect transgender people in a negative way. In most cases in the United States, to undergo a sex reassignment surgery, a person must first get a diagnosis from a doctor. That means readily accepting a mental illness diagnosis, even though the patient may not feel they have one, to go through with that part of transitioning.
After that, “stigma associated with both transgender status and mental disorders has contributed to precarious legal status, human rights violations, and barriers to appropriate health care among transgender people,” the paper says.
“The fact that people have a mental disorder has sometimes been misused to say, that means that they’re not competent to make their own decisions,” Reed said. “They’re not competent to decide if they want to be a different gender, they’re not competent to decide if they want to change their identity documents, they’re not competent to have custody of their own children, they’re not competent to manage their own reproductive rights.”
So why not remove the classification altogether, as was done with homosexuality? Because one of the primary goals of the reclassification is to also improve transgender people’s access to health care. There are often insurance-coverage differences between mental and physical illness, and one of the incentives for the authors of the study would be to close that gap.
“The risk would be if we took conditions related to gender identity out of the classification altogether, it would undermine the access to health services that transgender people have,” Reed said. “They wouldn’t have a diagnostic code that conveyed eligibility.”
Jack Drescher, a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst at New York Medical College who serves on the WHO working group, told the New York Times that inmates, such as Chelsea Manning, are able to receive hormone treatments in part because transgender identity belongs to a medical category.
Transgender activist groups have been working toward this for years, said Mauro Cabral, one of the program directors of the Global Action for Trans Equality.
Jamison Green, former president of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, said the change would be a tremendous relief to any person who is gender variant or gender nonconforming. The association has been publishing Standards of Care since 1979, guidelines for health professionals to assist transgender and gender-nonconforming people.
“If we could stop society from judging people’s gender expression as a kind of craziness if it doesn’t fit what someone else thinks their gender identity ought to be,” he said. “That’s going to be a long process, it’ll be more than just changing the diagnosis. But that would be a step in the right direction.”
The study also reveals how much a toll societal stigma can have on a young person. A 2012 study showed that teenagers who grew up with unsupportive families had a 57 percent suicide rate, compared to a 4 suicide rate for those who had supportive families. Some studies show that transgender people can develop post-traumatic stress disorder just from being transgender.
Because of this, for some trans activists, such as Alok Vaid-Menon, changing the language of the ICD-11 is a small battle won, but the war is still being waged for trans rights.
“For me, I don’t see it as necessarily a victory to differentiate ourselves from mental illness,” Vaid-Menon said in an interview Wednesday night. “The true victory would be to de-stigmatize diversity and difference itself.”
Even the fact that mental illness is stigmatized so much, to the point that trans people don’t want to be associated with it, is a cause for concern, Vaid-Menon said. The issue is not the labeling, but how people can damage each other through their actions.
“I think the bigger question that we need to ask is: Why do we stigmatize difference?” Vaid-Menon said.
Vaid-Menon is part of a trans South Asian performance art duo called Dark Matter, along with Janani Balasubramanian. This year, the New Yorker magazine said they “offer a cheeky radical-queer critique of the gay-rights movement.” They perform poems related to transgender rights and transphobia all over the country and are heavily involved in trans activism.
Even before this new study, to Vaid-Menon, it’s been painfully obvious that any distress related to being transgender comes from the outside world.
“We literally are traumatized doing really basic actions, like going outside, walking, doing our laundry, eating, where we have people say and do horrendous and horrible things to us,” Vaid-Menon said. “The only representation we see of ourselves in the media is violence and in the case of black and Latina trans women, often incredible murder. I think that it’s really really irresponsible, rude, and humiliating to say that it’s trans people’s internal fault that we are dysphoric. That makes no sense to me.”
Vaid-Menon is proud of the ICD-11 change, but said there are still bigger problems trans people face than a semantic definition. The real issues are violence, poverty, homelessness and housing discrimination. Reed acknowledged this in his paper, saying that “ample documentation from existing studies shows that transgender people experience high rates of harassment and violence, including sexual violence, not only from strangers but also from their own families and communities.”
“Young people who grow up in supportive environments” are not particularly distressed, Reed said. “They are receiving adequate social support, they come from families that are not treating them with stigmatization and violence, and they expect that there will be services available to them. So there’s no reason for them to be distressed. They still have the anatomical incongruence, where they experience themselves to be a different gender than what their body may be developing into. But they don’t have to have hallmarks of distress and dysfunction.”
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DONALD TRUMP calls it the “failing” New York Times in his tweets, but his presidency has breathed new life into the newspaper and other mainstream media outlets. The New York Times, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal have all received boosts in subscriptions and page views; cable news networks, such as CNN and the Fox News Channel, are getting huge increases in viewers at a time when most other channels are losing them; and even the long-suffering stocks of newspaper companies are rallying. Since the election shares in the New York Times Co have risen by 42%, outperforming even the mighty Goldman Sachs.
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@Wairau said in US Politics:
this is hilarious, what a fool-he has no logical come back. Tucker reams him. I'd love to see the All Blacks turn up at the Women's World Cup and say "We have self identified as females. Let us play."
Obviously I have issues!
That is terrifying. People actually believe that this idea is backed by science.
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@gollum What is that supposed to be in reference to? As an aside Colbert really has gone downhill since taking on this late show. No longer even slightly funny.
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@gollum What is that supposed to be in reference to? As an aside Colbert really has gone downhill since taking on this late show. No longer even slightly funny.
I assume Mussolini? Because everyone the left disagrees with is a racist, fascist, sexist.
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"Making the trains run on time" is the well quoted myth of Mussolini's to make the public believe he had achieved something to their benefit. Given that Trump is pretty good at making shit up to appear like he is achieving things it is obviously a funny parallel when that saying comes up.
It has more to do with the political strategy being the same than outright calling him a fascist (even if some people jump that shark straight away) -
@Crucial said in US Politics:
"Making the trains run on time" is the well quoted myth of Mussolini's to make the public believe he had achieved something to their benefit. Given that Trump is pretty good at making shit up to appear like he is achieving things it is obviously a funny parallel when that saying comes up.
It has more to do with the political strategy being the same than outright calling him a fascist (even if some people jump that shark straight away)He also said that "Bannon has to resist talking about his kampf". Gee I wonder what that was a reference to.
US Politics