-
@baron-silas-greenback said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
Just reading an article in Norway's largest online newspaper in which TR is repeatedly referred to as a right-wing extremist...
I agree that right wing extremist is overly emotive and prejudicial. Question though, would you be OK with right wing activist to right wing dissident? To me that is more descriptive.
How about anti-islamist campaigner? That's what he is.
Would you refer to someone going after the crimes of the Catholic Church as a left wing activist or leftwing extremists?
To be honest mate I was teasing you a bit about how to refer to TR and yeah, nowadays I would see him primarily as that anti-islamic campaigner/activist/whatever. Though Lauren Southern referred to him as a right wing dissident in the video that BSG posted above - the one in which his cameraman was explaining the events of his arrest.
To answer your other question, no I would call someone going after the Catholic church as eminently reasonable. But there is a difference in that one is a series of crimes committed by and on behalf of the actual religious order, the grooming gangs are not organised or controlled by their religious order to do their crimes.
On behalf of a religious order? Are you fucking serious?
Poorly worded. The degree of cover up, in itself a crime, was on behalf of the church is what I meant.
-
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
Just reading an article in Norway's largest online newspaper in which TR is repeatedly referred to as a right-wing extremist...
I agree that right wing extremist is overly emotive and prejudicial. Question though, would you be OK with right wing activist to right wing dissident? To me that is more descriptive.
How about anti-islamist campaigner? That's what he is.
Would you refer to someone going after the crimes of the Catholic Church as a left wing activist or leftwing extremists?
To be honest mate I was teasing you a bit about how to refer to TR and yeah, nowadays I would see him primarily as that anti-islamic campaigner/activist/whatever. Though Lauren Southern referred to him as a right wing dissident in the video that BSG posted above - the one in which his cameraman was explaining the events of his arrest.
To answer your other question, no I would call someone going after the Catholic church as eminently reasonable. But there is a difference in that one is a series of crimes committed by and on behalf of the actual religious order, the grooming gangs are not organised or controlled by their religious order to do their crimes.
I would just note that I don't think they were committing those crimes on behalf of the Catholic Church.
As @No-Quarter mentioned, these abuses certainly weren't committed in the name of their religion.
Edit: I see @Baron-Silas-Greenback put it in slightly more blunt terms.
-
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
They're very separate issues really. As far as I know there is nothing in the bible excusing or even talking about raping children. No doubt it was systemic in the Catholic church and they have, and still are, doing their utmost to cover it up.
But the idea of taking infidels as sex slaves is stated in many parts of the Qur'an which informs the fundamental teachings these men follow.
There is no official religious order in Islam like there is Catholicism, hence so many interpretations, but the grooming gangs have everything to do with the perpetrators radical religious beliefs. So being anti-Islamist in this case is also eminently reasonable.
I woudn't disagree with any of that but I would point out that, in the case of the grooming gangs in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any Bangladeshi muslims, Iranian muslims or Indonesian muslims. They are virtually all described as Pakistani muslims. So perhaps it is a cultural as well as religious problem?
-
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
They're very separate issues really. As far as I know there is nothing in the bible excusing or even talking about raping children. No doubt it was systemic in the Catholic church and they have, and still are, doing their utmost to cover it up.
But the idea of taking infidels as sex slaves is stated in many parts of the Qur'an which informs the fundamental teachings these men follow.
There is no official religious order in Islam like there is Catholicism, hence so many interpretations, but the grooming gangs have everything to do with the perpetrators radical religious beliefs. So being anti-Islamist in this case is also eminently reasonable.
I woudn't disagree with any of that but I would point out that, in the case of the grooming gangs in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any Bangladeshi muslims, Iranian muslims or Indonesian muslims. They are virtually all described as Pakistani muslims. So perhaps it is a cultural as well as religious problem?
Actually I was going to ask about that. It is predominantly Pakistani? Are there many SouthEast Asian Muslims in the UK? I can't imagine Malays or Indonesians doing this.
-
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
They're very separate issues really. As far as I know there is nothing in the bible excusing or even talking about raping children. No doubt it was systemic in the Catholic church and they have, and still are, doing their utmost to cover it up.
But the idea of taking infidels as sex slaves is stated in many parts of the Qur'an which informs the fundamental teachings these men follow.
There is no official religious order in Islam like there is Catholicism, hence so many interpretations, but the grooming gangs have everything to do with the perpetrators radical religious beliefs. So being anti-Islamist in this case is also eminently reasonable.
I woudn't disagree with any of that but I would point out that, in the case of the grooming gangs in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any Bangladeshi muslims, Iranian muslims or Indonesian muslims. They are virtually all described as Pakistani muslims. So perhaps it is a cultural as well as religious problem?
Actually I was going to ask about that. It is predominantly Pakistani? Are there many SouthEast Asian Muslims in the UK? I can't imagine Malays or Indonesians doing this.
Lots of Bangadeshi muslims in London. Brick Lane area is Banglatown.
-
@crucial said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
They're very separate issues really. As far as I know there is nothing in the bible excusing or even talking about raping children. No doubt it was systemic in the Catholic church and they have, and still are, doing their utmost to cover it up.
But the idea of taking infidels as sex slaves is stated in many parts of the Qur'an which informs the fundamental teachings these men follow.
There is no official religious order in Islam like there is Catholicism, hence so many interpretations, but the grooming gangs have everything to do with the perpetrators radical religious beliefs. So being anti-Islamist in this case is also eminently reasonable.
I woudn't disagree with any of that but I would point out that, in the case of the grooming gangs in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any Bangladeshi muslims, Iranian muslims or Indonesian muslims. They are virtually all described as Pakistani muslims. So perhaps it is a cultural as well as religious problem?
Actually I was going to ask about that. It is predominantly Pakistani? Are there many SouthEast Asian Muslims in the UK? I can't imagine Malays or Indonesians doing this.
Lots of Bangadeshi muslims in London. Brick Lane area is Banglatown.
Yeah, it's said that many "Indian" restaurants are in a actual fact Bangladeshi.
-
@baron-silas-greenback said in British Politics:
@crucial said in British Politics:
@jc said in British Politics:
@crucial said in British Politics:
OK, I admit my original comment was off the mark as I missed the bit where his lawyer did make enquiries and was told he was released.
I even subjected myself to that video again to pick that up. Weeding the facts out from the arrogant giggling and commentary is a mission. They show basic lack of understanding (eg about naming defendants as explained in a post above) and present it as proof of conspiracy.
I'm not saying that the approach here hasn't been heavy, it possibly has. Until we know what went on in that court though it is hard to say.
One thing to be clear though is that they are saying he is being held on remand so talk about an appeal is presumptuous. To me that seems that all the prosecution had to do was convince the judge there was a case to answer and that releasing TR to appear later had risk.Where are you seeing he is on remand? If so everyone (me included) is probably a bit premature. But the figure of 13months is pretty specific and bears no relation to his original suspended sentence which suggests it is an actual sentence handed down.
Should have said “was on remand”.
From the video they said he was denied bail on Friday. Then his case was heard on Tuesday ( it was a long weekend) where he had his lawyer and pleaded guilty. From the short quotes it sounds like it was explained to him how he crossed the line and he had no real defence.
Basically, he put possible convictions at risk first time then did it again while on a suspended sentence.
Maybe he needs to look around himself and see if other reporters are there. If they aren’t then there’s probably a good reason. TR and his supporters seem to believe he is the only one talking about these cases. They aren’t. They are just the ones talking about them before the legal process has finished.Where are you getting those days from?
Went back over the reports I read again and although I’d like to blame the shoddy reporting alone, it was a combination of that and my distracted reading that lead me to that conclusion.
In the video they talk about TR being remanded and in a few news reports they talk about protests on the weekend after the arrest not after the conviction. I guess it got muddled as they cut and paste old reports written during the D notice.
So yes, it seems the trial and conviction was on Friday.
After reading the judges comments the D notice and expediency make sense. -
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
They're very separate issues really. As far as I know there is nothing in the bible excusing or even talking about raping children. No doubt it was systemic in the Catholic church and they have, and still are, doing their utmost to cover it up.
But the idea of taking infidels as sex slaves is stated in many parts of the Qur'an which informs the fundamental teachings these men follow.
There is no official religious order in Islam like there is Catholicism, hence so many interpretations, but the grooming gangs have everything to do with the perpetrators radical religious beliefs. So being anti-Islamist in this case is also eminently reasonable.
I woudn't disagree with any of that but I would point out that, in the case of the grooming gangs in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any Bangladeshi muslims, Iranian muslims or Indonesian muslims. They are virtually all described as Pakistani muslims. So perhaps it is a cultural as well as religious problem?
Yup, good point, it's without a doubt a cultural thing as well. The two go hand in hand. Doesn't change the fact that one could read the holy book and justify this sort of abhorrent behavior based on what is written though, so there are some pretty serious problems with the ideology.
-
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
They're very separate issues really. As far as I know there is nothing in the bible excusing or even talking about raping children. No doubt it was systemic in the Catholic church and they have, and still are, doing their utmost to cover it up.
But the idea of taking infidels as sex slaves is stated in many parts of the Qur'an which informs the fundamental teachings these men follow.
There is no official religious order in Islam like there is Catholicism, hence so many interpretations, but the grooming gangs have everything to do with the perpetrators radical religious beliefs. So being anti-Islamist in this case is also eminently reasonable.
I woudn't disagree with any of that but I would point out that, in the case of the grooming gangs in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any Bangladeshi muslims, Iranian muslims or Indonesian muslims. They are virtually all described as Pakistani muslims. So perhaps it is a cultural as well as religious problem?
Yup, good point, it's without a doubt a cultural thing as well. The two go hand in hand. Doesn't change the fact that one could read the holy book and justify this sort of abhorrent behavior based on what is written though, so there are some pretty serious problems with the ideology.
Can do that with other religious writings as well though. It still comes back to individual behaviour and choices. They may use writings as personal justification but they make the choice.
-
@crucial said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
@catogrande said in British Politics:
@no-quarter said in British Politics:
They're very separate issues really. As far as I know there is nothing in the bible excusing or even talking about raping children. No doubt it was systemic in the Catholic church and they have, and still are, doing their utmost to cover it up.
But the idea of taking infidels as sex slaves is stated in many parts of the Qur'an which informs the fundamental teachings these men follow.
There is no official religious order in Islam like there is Catholicism, hence so many interpretations, but the grooming gangs have everything to do with the perpetrators radical religious beliefs. So being anti-Islamist in this case is also eminently reasonable.
I woudn't disagree with any of that but I would point out that, in the case of the grooming gangs in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a problem with any Bangladeshi muslims, Iranian muslims or Indonesian muslims. They are virtually all described as Pakistani muslims. So perhaps it is a cultural as well as religious problem?
Yup, good point, it's without a doubt a cultural thing as well. The two go hand in hand. Doesn't change the fact that one could read the holy book and justify this sort of abhorrent behavior based on what is written though, so there are some pretty serious problems with the ideology.
Can do that with other religious writings as well though. It still comes back to individual behaviour and choices. They may use writings as personal justification but they make the choice.
I guess you could look at it this way - it is easier to justify a raft of abhorrent behavior from the writings in the Qur'an than it is any of the other major religious texts. Which is why we see something like 90% of terrorist attacks being committed in the name of Islam, without even considering the subjugation of women, punishment and killing of homosexuals etc. in so many Muslim majority countries.
I'm not for one minute going to defend any other religion, I detest them all. But Islam is objectively the worst of the lot right now. That's not an opinion, that's a fact based on what is written in the Qur'an and what is playing out in the world today.
You are right about it coming back to individual choices though. I wish everyone would focus on the individual rather than blindly following ideologies whether they be political, religious, or in the case of Islam both.
-
When there are also millions of peaceful law abiding followers of the same writings though, I am loathe to blame the religion itself. Plenty of wars and terrible acts committed in the name of Christianity in the past and it comes back to justification.
I doubt that anyone that didn’t want to rape young girls in the first place did so because it was written/interpreted that they could/should.
That’s why these people are expected to follow the law of the land.
I get that there has been a very bad problem with process and people that should be protecting and stopping these situations from from happening aren’t doing so because of the systems in place. That’s a different issue to religion though and I would be much happier to see activists blaming officials rather than religion.
I’m generalising here but it’s a bit of British culture in workplaces still to be a bit of a jobsworth, not take on responsibility and expect others to do things that you may notice. You only have to experience the British concept of customer service to instantly encounter buck passing and ‘not my job’.
Combine this with well meaning but over thought rules of engagement and the inaction over these gangs is inevitable.
Things have over corrected since the bad days of racist policing and the Stephen Lawrence case. Probably not so much the rules themselves but the application of them. -
I posted this before but the problem is pretty specific to one group of Muslims, Mirpuris . In Pakistan they are considered the lowest educated, inbred and most backward hillbillies in the country .
Think about that for a minute.
A lot of them ended up in the Uk post war as some sort of compensation for a dam project in Pakistan and set up their own enclaves where they carried on marrying their cousins and having sex with underage girls. It’s a safe bet wherever these scumbags live there’s a problem with child rape on a huge scale.
Here’s a magnificent rant about them
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2013/11/you-cant-say-that/ -
@crucial said in British Politics:
When there are also millions of peaceful law abiding followers of the same writings though, I am loathe to blame the religion itself. Plenty of wars and terrible acts committed in the name of Christianity in the past and it comes back to justification.
I doubt that anyone that didn’t want to rape young girls in the first place did so because it was written/interpreted that they could/should.
That’s why these people are expected to follow the law of the land.
I get that there has been a very bad problem with process and people that should be protecting and stopping these situations from from happening aren’t doing so because of the systems in place. That’s a different issue to religion though and I would be much happier to see activists blaming officials rather than religion.
I’m generalising here but it’s a bit of British culture in workplaces still to be a bit of a jobsworth, not take on responsibility and expect others to do things that you may notice. You only have to experience the British concept of customer service to instantly encounter buck passing and ‘not my job’.
Combine this with well meaning but over thought rules of engagement and the inaction over these gangs is inevitable.
Things have over corrected since the bad days of racist policing and the Stephen Lawrence case. Probably not so much the rules themselves but the application of them.Most of the Alt-right are peaceful law-abiding citizens. You don't have a problem with their ideology?
It's easy to blame culture and certainly some countries are worse than others when concerning extremism. But the fact that Islamic extremism has attracted people from across multiple cultures, races and walks of life has to be a massive concern. Obviously it is the individual who is responsible in the end, but dismissing the words and creed that they are following as being irrelevant is a very strange position. Comparing modern day Islamic zeolots to the actions of medieval Christian absolute monarchies is just plain weird.
-
@jegga said in British Politics:
I posted this before but the problem is pretty specific to one group of Muslims, Mirpuris . In Pakistan they are considered the lowest educated, inbred and most backward hillbillies in the country .
Think about that for a minute.
A lot of them ended up in the Uk post war as some sort of compensation for a dam project in Pakistan and set up their own enclaves where they carried on marrying their cousins and having sex with underage girls. It’s a safe bet wherever these scumbags live there’s a problem with child rape on a huge scale.
Here’s a magnificent rant about them
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2013/11/you-cant-say-that/There you go. You can't criticise the religion and clearly can't criticise the culture. So I guess you just have to pretend there is no problem and bury your head in the sand. Yet that'll work.
This is so ridiculous. It's not about racism or bigotry. It's about stating what the rules and expectations are and then enforcing them. What do people honestly expect the result will be?
-
Take the Islam vs Muslim stuff to another thread please.
-
So I attended the #FREETOMMY rally in Melbourne this morning, about 250-300 in attendance. And 5 hilarious protesters of the soy-boy variety.
AP had a reporter on the scene whom I recognised from other events. News article wasn't far behind "Free speech rally draws dozens'.. that is a lot of dozens. Naturally news outlets from around the world picked that headline up so 300 is now dozens..whatever..
The London rally is on right now and it looks huge, easily thousands, maybe over 10,000
This thing might have legs.
-
"Why are little girls being mutilated and raped while British authorities continue to look the other way?
- Anne Marie Waters
Pretty powerful stuff. I wonder if the government will react?
Have been getting rumours that the Police cancelled the Newcastle event due to a policing shortage with the Ed Sheeran concert on, also that the underground tanoy at the closest London underground station was advising commuters that the London protest had been canned. Cannot verify either at the moment.
-
Sorry @Rembrandt, I understand you are passionate about the underlying message but this is plain dumb and totally twists reality.
TR broke the law and admitted it. His actions almost derailed the very convictions he is arguing for so extra stupid on his part.
The authorities are currently doing everything they can to get justice for those girls, including strict enforcement of court reporting so as not to ruin the prosecution.
I don't deny that originally there were system failings and that needs dealing with to stop it happening again. That is well understood by the police.
There was no need for TR to doing what he did except for promoting his own underlying agenda of being anti-islam. This 'protest' smacks of being a group of football hooligans that believe that being British means fitting some image they hold of themselves and without grasp of reality.
How much diversity is in that crowd? Not much. -
Crowds are getting bigger.
And they don’t particularly look like football holligans to me. Okay, so crowds are predominantly white; they’re also individuals with a culture that provided the Magna Carta — a culture with values that attracts migrants from other lands. It could be that they are more invested in protecting their history & culture than newcomers. Doesn’t mean they’re racist.
British Politics