Use of the TMO
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@crucial said in Use of the TMO:
How on earth would a drone and lines solve the problem? It would make it worse.
The problem is that the moment a commentator (eg a Kearns, Marshall or whoever that terrible Irish one is) opens their mouth and says 'that was clearly forward' using an incorrect understanding of the law, a vast majority of watchers and aggrieved fans believe them.
If you want it that the ball cannot travel toward the opposition line after a pass then say goodbye to great tries like this oneBall was never passed in a forward motion from Umaga but was caught ahead of where he let it go.
A drone and lines would only show with clarity how the ball was caught ahead of the passer, not how the ball was passed.
It's a forward pass not a forward catch that is the transgression.
Onto the talk of the TMO and time spent, we have to deal a lot with Ayoub. I hardly ever see a TMO calling from him that doesn't have him take extra and repeat views after the clear and obvious has been seen. With him you also get regular confusion around whether it is 'any reason why I cannot award the try' as happened the other night. Ref said he had seen grounding and was going to award try. That means 'any reason why I can't' NOT 'try or no try'.
Instead Ayoub looked over and over at blurred replays and decided that because he couldn't see it then it didn't happen.
That's the kind of TMO shite we need to get rid of.Agree on Ayoub. This sort of thing is exactly why this captains review system lots of people think will magically fix everything will fail. The review will still be sent to an incompetent tmo who will get it wrong 50% of the time.
What i think would help would be a winding back of the tmo's authority. Make the onfield ref the sole judge. He can send sonething for review but it needs to be specific eg. "Can you tell me if there is clear evidence of the ball being held up until i stopped play" rather than "try or no try" or "can you give me a reason not to award the try"
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@taniwharugby said in Use of the TMO:
@nepia pretty sure he could have, maybe he bowed to the more experienced TMO that is Georgie Ayoub?
Or he didn't actually see the ball grounded but just suspected it was?
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@pukunui said in Use of the TMO:
Agree on Ayoub. This sort of thing is exactly why this captains review system lots of people think will magically fix everything will fail. The review will still be sent to an incompetent tmo who will get it wrong 50% of the time.
The captain's review idea is flawed for a number of reasons.
It works in cricket because everyone is watching the ball, and the players have a similar view of proceedings to the umpire. They can, in most cases, make a fairly accurate call on LBW decisions.
In rugby, though, everyone is moving all the time. Take the contentious decision in the 76th minute of Ireland/Australia - Tolu Latu is penalised for not releasing the tackled player, though he clearly did and had all rights to the ball. He's penalised unfairly.
But does a challenge fix this? The captain, Pocock, is out in the backline and looking at the Irish backline. He's got no idea what is happening in the ruck. How could he challenge the decision? He just has to take the word of his player, but with all the things going on at ruck time, would the player even know if he was in the right?
It's just too messy to ever work and I really hope it never appears in rugby.
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@barbarian agree with that. Challenges work in static games, would be a nightmare in a fluid game.
Also what does it actually accomplish? Was that Latu decision clearly wrong? Is the game improved by that penalty being over turned? Would it be over turned on review? (no matter what Kearnsy says). Was it already cancelled out by the suspect one Pocock earned in the first half? Should that have been reviewed. Where does it end?
The captains/coach's challenge actually opens us up to more TMO interference, in more areas of the game, and no one wants that.
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@barbarian said in Use of the TMO:
100% agree. And I'm not having a whinge about the Latu decision, though I think it was the wrong one. As you say, Pocock got away with one earlier. To quote my mantra for 2018... the refs giveth and the refs taketh away.
yep, didn't mean to infer you were whinging at all.
If there was far less focus on the ref, everyone would be happier. But fans only see injustice, and they are fed by people who know injustice generates clicks. And World Rugby appear to be weak as piss, and just go where the popular wind blows. Unfortunately for us, there are several high-profile rugby writers who have an awfully large amount of wind.
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@mariner4life as evidenced by the recent French series, I reckon the 3 games were refereed very well, but were overshadowed by 4 moments in 3 games leading to the refs being called all but cheats, wrong and hapless.
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Test 1. Let down by TMO, twice.
Test 2. Let down by judiciary
Test 3. Let down by commentators.The refs were good. The periphery? Not so much
My other point about the TMO is that giving them the power to check everything is giving the players waaaay more room to hound refs in to changing decisions. We used to be the game that was renowned for the way refs were respected by players. Now? We get them running in, en masse, to badger the ref in to 2nd guessing himself, and checking any little thing. Case in point was the end of the Wallaby game on the weekend, what a farce that was!
And i think the constant scrutiny by TMOs is actually making the on-field reffing worse, as they are less sure of themselves, lest some super-slow-mo camera pick up something from another angle they can't possibly see, and they get called incompetent, or a cheat
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@mariner4life yep, refs are shit scared of making a decision, they defer to the TMO to make the call and at present, get it wrong.
Think they need to redo the scope of the TMO, and make sure they and the refs adhere to thier boundaries.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@barbarian said in Use of the TMO:
100% agree. And I'm not having a whinge about the Latu decision, though I think it was the wrong one. As you say, Pocock got away with one earlier. To quote my mantra for 2018... the refs giveth and the refs taketh away.
yep, didn't mean to infer you were whinging at all.
If there was far less focus on the ref, everyone would be happier. But fans only see injustice, and they are fed by people who know injustice generates clicks. And World Rugby appear to be weak as piss, and just go where the popular wind blows. Unfortunately for us, there are several high-profile rugby writers who have an awfully large amount of wind.
This. We whined and whinged too much in all sports because, well because we all fucken know everything about everything. So namby pambies decided to plaster over everything instead of addressing the problem by telling people to either become a ref or just shut the fuck up ( Get back in your box)
The genie ain't going back and now it's a future of virtue signalling or arse covering.
and get off my lawn!!
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Test 1. Let down by TMO, twice.
Test 2. Let down by judiciary
Test 3. Let down by commentators.There's also the case of missing Luke Whitelock's knock on at the back of the scrum for one of the AB tries. That was totally butchered. It was as clear as day on the standard tv feed that it required another look at the very least.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Test 1. Let down by TMO, twice.
Test 2. Let down by judiciary
Test 3. Let down by commentators.The refs were good. The periphery? Not so much
I'd argue the exact same thing happened in the Australia/Ireland series, except is was the TMO on all three occasions.
The on-field refs did pretty well, and neither fanbase could be too aggrieved at the decisions that were made. But the insistence of the TMO to get his nose into every corner of the game was just infuriating.
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@kiwimurph said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Test 1. Let down by TMO, twice.
Test 2. Let down by judiciary
Test 3. Let down by commentators.There's also the case of missing Luke Whitelock's knock on at the back of the scrum for one of the AB tries. That was totally butchered. It was as clear as day on the standard tv feed that it required another look at the very least.
Case in point. Is that only important because it was right before a try? I bet there was 20 calls that were similar during the series, just at times that seem less "crucial".
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@barbarian said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Test 1. Let down by TMO, twice.
Test 2. Let down by judiciary
Test 3. Let down by commentators.The refs were good. The periphery? Not so much
I'd argue the exact same thing happened in the Australia/Ireland series, except is was the TMO on all three occasions.
The on-field refs did pretty well, and neither fanbase could be too aggrieved at the decisions that were made. But the insistence of the TMO to get his nose into every corner of the game was just infuriating.
I mentioned it in the game thread, but that one for Coleman's side entry drove me nuts!!! Ireland had a penalty at the ruck. The TMO pipes up with is "just. checking. for. possible. foul. play" we watch 20 replays of Coleman entering from teh side with a bit of vigour. Result? Ireland get a penalty. At the same spot they already have one. Bra-fucking-vo everyone.
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@kiwimurph backwards out the hand onto someone's leg wannit?
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@siam said in Use of the TMO:
@kiwimurph backwards out the hand onto someone's leg wannit?
Then did it touch Luke or did Luke touch it? Either way, it probably should have been called back.
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@nepia said in Use of the TMO:
@siam said in Use of the TMO:
@kiwimurph backwards out the hand onto someone's leg wannit?
Then did it touch Luke or did Luke touch it? Either way, it probably should have been called back.
whatever Justin
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@nepia said in Use of the TMO:
@siam said in Use of the TMO:
@kiwimurph backwards out the hand onto someone's leg wannit?
Then did it touch Luke or did Luke touch it? Either way, it probably should have been called back.
It's on one of the GIFs i posted in the other thread.
It happens exactly at the moment Lacey is looking away and moving out the zone, also by then he happens on the other side of the scrum as he is trying to move out of the way.
If it had been an away test, the crowd would have howled and booed and probably a touchie would have recommended they look at it on the TMO. (which should have happened anyway TBH, one of the touchies should have said something - as much as it pains me to recommend more TMO reviews)
TMO review would have shown it to be OK. Try stands.
Crowd still would have moaned.
Gwyneth Paltrow arrives home to find her husband is cheating on her.
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@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
@kiwimurph said in Use of the TMO:
@mariner4life said in Use of the TMO:
Test 1. Let down by TMO, twice.
Test 2. Let down by judiciary
Test 3. Let down by commentators.There's also the case of missing Luke Whitelock's knock on at the back of the scrum for one of the AB tries. That was totally butchered. It was as clear as day on the standard tv feed that it required another look at the very least.
Case in point. Is that only important because it was right before a try? I bet there was 20 calls that were similar during the series, just at times that seem less "crucial".
Ioane did a huge obvious knock on running back on defence to reirieve a kick. I thought that was the worst refereeing call of the night.
McKenzie to Ioane sexy try was forward pass. Made to look worse by optical illusion of the inside pass and McKenzie getting hit backwards. But it was forward.
