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Actually in hindsight, I'm just deleting the riposte and moving on.
The UK has issues, is a shithole with crap weather and is causing world war3. Horrible place to live, and the fact that I've chosen to live here with my family, shows me to be a completely deluded idiot, putting my family's future and life at risk.
TSF is right, I'm wrong.
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@majorrage said in British Politics:
Actually in hindsight, I'm just deleting the riposte and moving on.
The UK has issues, is a shithole with crap weather and is causing world war3. Horrible place to live, and the fact that I've chosen to live here with my family, shows me to be a completely deluded idiot, putting my family's future and life at risk.
TSF is right, I'm wrong.
The core issue being discussed is free speech. The 20th century is littered with examples of free speech being impeded with disastrous consequences. There's nothing to suggest that if we allow our rights to be eroded the same won't happen again.
Hate speech laws are dangerous, and are being passed into law without many people raising an eyebrow. Jordan Peterson rose to fame by pushing back against compelled speech, which is the next step along the line from banning "hate speech" - and he was right to do so. The government banning speech and then compelling the correct speech is the stuff of Hitler and Stalin. Fuck. That.
Personally, and I think more and more people are realising this when they give it more than a moments thought, if you don't allow hate speech then you just don't have free speech, period. As what "hate speech" boils down to is whether it is offensive - that is impossible for one person to define. And you can bet your bottom dollar it will end up being defined by exactly the people that should not be defining it - which is what we are seeing.
The radical left has way too much sway in important institutions in society right now - particularly education but in the UK worryingly the police appear right on board as well. That needs to stop ASAP.
Also, it's easy to say "the majority don't agree with this", and you'd be right, but that doesn't help the parents of the daughter who has a criminal conviction for copy and pasting rap lyrics online. That is the kind of story that has made my wife and I reconsider moving to the UK.
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@majorrage said in British Politics:
Actually in hindsight, I'm just deleting the riposte and moving on.
The UK has issues, is a shithole with crap weather and is causing world war3. Horrible place to live, and the fact that I've chosen to live here with my family, shows me to be a completely deluded idiot, putting my family's future and life at risk.
TSF is right, I'm wrong.
Hyperbolic sarcasm. Good debating tactic.
You know nobody is suggesting that. What people are getting at is if we want to stop things going downhill, now would be a good time to start doing something about it rather than waiting for it to be a fait accompli and trying to retrieve it.
You're not the only one on the Fern with connections to the UK. I've been living full or part time in London since 1989 and there is no question in my mind that the quality of life has fallen away. Some of that is down to external factors but other parts are, frankly, self immolation.
My own main concern is that there has always been an authoritarian element in British politics that likes to control what people can do and say. Historically its been a conservative (in the worst way) force but now it's being used to push ideology. MPs who have no fear of being voted out are able to push it hard, and they are.
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@no-quarter said in British Politics:
Also, it's easy to say "the majority don't agree with this", and you'd be right, but that doesn't help the parents of the daughter who has a criminal conviction for copy and pasting rap lyrics online. That is the kind of story that has made my wife and I reconsider moving to the UK.
Hard to see how that isn't Orwellian.
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@majorrage said in British Politics:
Actually in hindsight, I'm just deleting the riposte and moving on.
The UK has issues, is a shithole with crap weather and is causing world war3. Horrible place to live, and the fact that I've chosen to live here with my family, shows me to be a completely deluded idiot, putting my family's future and life at risk.
TSF is right, I'm wrong.
Oh pick your toys up.
The reality is that the ONLY reason a lot more people are not being picked up is resourcing.
Once the police can get some machine learning assistance to detect 'hate speech' and some automatic ticketing apparatus, then everyone who goes against the orthodoxy will have there speech coerced.
The laws ands will are already there, it is just the scale that is lacking.
But I am starting to see why your replies are so emotive rather than logical, it is because you see this as a personal attack on your choices.
Dont be so defensive, I bought my family to NZ and we have a prancing socialist princess who is running the economy into the toilet. Least you guys didnt actually vote Corbyn in and voted for Brexit... -
@jc said in British Politics:
g.Hyperbolic sarcasm. Good debating tactic.
You know nobody is suggesting that. What people are getting at is if we want to stop things going downhill, now would be a good time to start doing something about it rather than waiting for it to be a fait accompli and trying to retrieve it.
You're not the only one on the Fern with connections to the UK. I've been living full or part time in London since 1989 and there is no question in my mind that the quality of life has fallen away. Some of that is down to external factors but other parts are, frankly, self immolation.
My own main concern is that there has always been an authoritarian element in British politics that likes to control what people can do and say. Historically its been a conservative (in the worst way) force but now it's being used to push ideology. MPs who have no fear of being voted out are able to push it hard, and they are.
It's cool JC, honestly, it is. You are welcome to your views and I'm welcome to mine.
The difference is that you won't take the criticism I do for mine, that you do for yours. Because you suit the rhetoric that many on here want to believe. It's the same rhetoric that has never budget one iota since I removed here. And yet, it's the same rhetoric that I've not witnessed once, from anybody living here.
It's just not worth debating anymore. It's just a waste of everybodies time.
Hyperbolic sarcasm is not a debating tactic, and surely you must have been aware, that I''d actually given up the debate by that point. The "other side" has no interest in my side, me who lives here, because it doesn't suit their agenda.
Maybe you guys will all be right - who knows? But I'm not debating anymore - it's pointless.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in British Politics:
@majorrage said in British Politics:
Actually in hindsight, I'm just deleting the riposte and moving on.
The UK has issues, is a shithole with crap weather and is causing world war3. Horrible place to live, and the fact that I've chosen to live here with my family, shows me to be a completely deluded idiot, putting my family's future and life at risk.
TSF is right, I'm wrong.
Oh pick your toys up.
The reality is that the ONLY reason a lot more people are not being picked up is resourcing.
Once the police can get some machine learning assistance to detect 'hate speech' and some automatic ticketing apparatus, then everyone who goes against the orthodoxy will have there speech coerced.
The laws ands will are already there, it is just the scale that is lacking.
But I am starting to see why your replies are so emotive rather than logical, it is because you see this as a personal attack on your choices.
Dont be so defensive, I bought my family to NZ and we have a prancing socialist princess who is running the economy into the toilet. Least you guys didnt actually vote Corbyn in and voted for Brexit...The machine learning aspect is very concerning (kudos for not calling it AI). With so much of our lives being online these days, this is going to change policing drastically.
Particularly if all these governments get the encryption backdoors they all seem to be after.
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@majorrage said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
@majorrage said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
@majorrage said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
@majorrage said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel said in British Politics:
@majorrage said in British Politics:
@rancid-schnitzel so your a true brexiteer then ... ?
How is this different to the rest of the planet?
What? The whole point is that what the true population think or want is irrelevant if those in power or positions of influence wish to impose something on them.
Yes, and my initial riposte was that Brexit proves against that. May is absolutely clear her view of no re-vote as that goes against British democracy. and Brexit must go ahead. Which is clearly in contrast to what you say.
You could of course argue the Boris Johnson view in that it's not a real Brexit and she's in contrast yet again of this. Well, I'm afraid there is no easy solution there which is part of the wider issue - you can't please everybody, so who do you please and who do you piss off?
The borders will be back in control, which is what I believe most of the vote came from, and hence I think if she can deliver that, as well as keeping as many of the jobs here as possible, then she's done a half decent job. Just my view though. I've veered off topic enough anyway.
Your thoughts on people in power imposing things they don't want, well, I don't see Britain as any better or worse than any other country - and thats kind of one of the prices of the democratic governance we all abide by. And free speech allows all of us to question that. And hence why the movements that exist, do exist.
And I have a higher level of comfort than others as "the people" are not lying down and accepting these idiotic things. There's a massive difference between a govt imposing idiotic things which bear no real relevance to common sense, logic, people safety, people best interests and the people following blindly along, and the situation in the UK.
It ain't North Korea ... it ain't even close.
You've obviously missed the point so I'm not even going to bother. North Korea ffs.
No, I disagreed with your point. Very different.
No you can't even properly address my point and instead go massively off topic about
Brexit and then make a ridiculous references to North Korea.Brexit contradicts your point. You can’t seem to handle that.
NK .. just a little reference, Happy to remove it if that’s what it takes for to debate
Wtf? No it doesn't. What an absurd thing to claim.
Don't bother. I'm done. Keep your blinkers on if you want. What you can't see on the train commute can't affect you.
Pathetic. Expected better.
Actually, no that’s not true.
Funny. I could write exactly the same comment about you. Pot kettle.
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@majorrage I had a great time on my recent visit to London. My mates are still pretty much up to the same stuff, working during the week, watching footy, going to gigs etc. It's still a great place to live especially when you don't follow certain news. But it looks like there is something really ugly developing, not just in the UK but around the world, the UK however is leading the charge in some ways with the most stark examples of it. Kind of like a canary in the coal mine situation, and its scary the amount of cover-up there is . The trajectory is the worry and by the time some people realise what is going on the damage may already be done, definitely see some parallels developing with the authoritarian tragedies of the 20th century.
I'm actually tempted to return to work over there as I have nothing tieing me down here currently and I made some useful contacts on my last trip who could help with a career change ,also despite the insanity its still a fine place to live at least for now.
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@rembrandt Oh don’t get me wrong, I love London too. I live there for 3 or 4 months every year and culturally it couldn’t be more different to where I spend the rest of my time. I’m very lucky to be able to do what I do and to be honest much of what I don’t like doesn’t really affect me directly.
But if I’m honest I am one of the privileged, and I don’t have to care about things that have real world consequences for a lot of people. My best friend over there has a son who’s just about to turn 18. He’s not really cut out for uni but has no other way to leverage himself into an unqualified position that will likely have hundreds of applicants. His parents are both conservative, working people (cops), so no family money, he’s white and male, he’s 18. So he’s fucked. I’m sure a recent arrival might not come into contact with people like that and might think everyone’s happy. But they’d be wrong.
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@majorrage said in British Politics:
And yet, it's the same rhetoric that I've not witnessed once, from anybody living here.
I think a lot of Londoners don't actually know what is going on in their own City. Living over there the last 3 years I was amazed by just how many people largely spend most of their lives in the borough they live in. Venturing out only to catch the bus/coach to Stansted or Gatwick for the week long all inclusive beach holiday at Mallorca or Ibiza etc. I was always shocked how many of them have barely seen their own city let alone their own country. It's one thing living in Wimbledon or Barnes and discussing politics with friends over high tea and a completely different story going to somewhere like Southall, Edmonton Green or Harlesden etc.
A lot of left wing apologists I met try to make it sound like it's all middle aged white people and right wing neo Nazis that voted Brexit or think immigration is out of control. It's most definitely not. I was in a position where I was going to all sorts of different parts of London for work during the Brexit referendum and I always found it interesting hearing peoples thoughts on it.
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@chiefy07 said in British Politics:
@majorrage said in British Politics:
And yet, it's the same rhetoric that I've not witnessed once, from anybody living here.
I think a lot of Londoners don't actually know what is going on in their own City. Living over there the last 3 years I was amazed by just how many people largely spend most of their lives in the borough they live in. Venturing out only to catch the bus/coach to Stansted or Gatwick for the week long all inclusive beach holiday at Mallorca or Ibiza etc. I was always shocked how many of them have barely seen their own city let alone their own country. It's one thing living in Wimbledon or Barnes and discussing politics with friends over high tea and a completely different story going to somewhere like Southall, Edmonton Green or Harlesden etc.
A lot of left wing apologists I met try to make it sound like it's all middle aged white people and right wing neo Nazis that voted Brexit or think immigration is out of control. It's most definitely not. I was in a position where I was going to all sorts of different parts of London for work during the Brexit referendum and I always found it interesting hearing peoples thoughts on it.
The Brexit vote and debate showed that a lot of people who declared themselves worldly were actually really ignorant of the immediate world they most closely lived in.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in British Politics:
The Brexit vote and debate showed that a lot of people who declared themselves worldly were actually really ignorant of the immediate world they most closely lived in.
It's funny I caught up with my old boss when I was over there. We've always been very close having to often have each others back against some appalling senior managers years back, and have kept in contact since I left the UK. Anyway he'd always acted very non-political. Chatting to him and his wife they mentioned brexit and how they were all over it, but gave no clues as to where they stood. Well get a beer (or a coffee) in me and I'll get talking and I told them exactly where my thoughts were and how they changed in the last couple years. This massively broke the ice, turns out they both voted leave but were too scared to talk about it because people are just being labelled as racists. Kinda scary that despite how close I am with him that he still felt the fear of talking about it.
I've probably posted this before but I found this fascinating on how the EU works from interviews with UKIP MEPs
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@chiefy07 said in British Politics:
A lot of left wing apologists I met try to make it sound like it's all middle aged white people and right wing neo Nazis that voted Brexit or think immigration is out of control. It's most definitely not. I was in a position where I was going to all sorts of different parts of London for work during the Brexit referendum and I always found it interesting hearing peoples thoughts on it.
Well this middle aged white guy voted Remain. And if they have a second referendum I'll probably do so again (even though the idea of a second referendum is retarded). I just don't think unwinding the union is going to solve the problems that the UK has, as many of the Brits seem hellbent on retaining the worst outcomes of EU membership with or without the Europeans. Dollars to donuts the immigration issues that the majority of Leavers wanted to address get reintroduced in nearly identical form as a priority following the exit.
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@jc I too was a remainer at the time of voting..but you know as it was in the bag and I was otherwise occupied I didn't vote. Avid Brexiteer now though.
Out of interest what are your thoughts on the action of the EU looking to remove Hungary's voting rights for following the will of their people and government in not wanting to take in refugees/economic migrants? It's this sort of thing that really knocked me over to the other side.
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@rembrandt My thoughts are that the European Parliament is a bunch of bullies and the Commission is a stark warning as to what happens when you give bureaucrats unfettered reign. Unfortunately all completely unsurprising, and if the membership was solely about social and political government I’d certainly have voted Leave.
But I thought, and still think, that the chances of manufacturing a deal for the UK that is economically neutral or better in the medium term is close to zero. The hostility of the EU wets was a given, and they intend the way they deal with the UK to serve as a warning to any other would be troublemakers. What they are doing to Hungary seems to me to be just another aspect of the same mindset. Dissent is not an option and they’ll shoot their own balls off rather than concede dissenters might have a point.
At the same time there are powerful interests in the UK that like the social agenda the EU has been driving and if you think they’ll stop pushing it post Brexit your dreaming. The fact is that blaming the EU for some of the regulatory madness was only ever half the story, the other side being that people in authority in the UK have been responsible for plenty of idiocy in their own right. Brexit isn’t going to stop the tendency for those who know what’s best for us to rise and save us from ourselves (not my line, hat tip to Neil Peart 😉).
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@jc said in British Politics:
@rembrandt Oh don’t get me wrong, I love London too. I live there for 3 or 4 months every year and culturally it couldn’t be more different to where I spend the rest of my time. I’m very lucky to be able to do what I do and to be honest much of what I don’t like doesn’t really affect me directly.
But if I’m honest I am one of the privileged, and I don’t have to care about things that have real world consequences for a lot of people. My best friend over there has a son who’s just about to turn 18. He’s not really cut out for uni but has no other way to leverage himself into an unqualified position that will likely have hundreds of applicants. His parents are both conservative, working people (cops), so no family money, he’s white and male, he’s 18. So he’s fucked. I’m sure a recent arrival might not come into contact with people like that and might think everyone’s happy. But they’d be wrong.
Great post JC. Far too often the royal "we" is used when claiming "we've never had it so good" or "we've become so rich" or when invoking "privilege". There is so much projection from people who assume their own personal circumstances must apply to everyone else. There seems to be an acknowledgement of the privileged rich and the needy poor but a complete disregard for the different levels of "middle" that are the backbone of most societies.
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@jc I agree with a lot of that but I guess my perspective is the EU is becoming increasingly worse and completely unwilling to reform. If they are half the problem why not remove them so you only have half a problem left? I think the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU especially with Trump not a fan of the union and willing to dangle a Free Trade agreement. I'd love to see them threaten a no-deal Brexit and see how quickly the EU then gets back into line.
If you do get a chance have a listen to the interview I posted above, obviously this is from a UKIP perspective but still its pretty worrying how things operate.My bold prediction is that the EU won't exist 15 years from now and you definitely don't want to still be on that ship when it sinks.
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@jc said in British Politics:
@chiefy07 said in British Politics:
A lot of left wing apologists I met try to make it sound like it's all middle aged white people and right wing neo Nazis that voted Brexit or think immigration is out of control. It's most definitely not. I was in a position where I was going to all sorts of different parts of London for work during the Brexit referendum and I always found it interesting hearing peoples thoughts on it.
Well this middle aged white guy voted Remain. And if they have a second referendum I'll probably do so again (even though the idea of a second referendum is retarded). I just don't think unwinding the union is going to solve the problems that the UK has, as many of the Brits seem hellbent on retaining the worst outcomes of EU membership with or without the Europeans. Dollars to donuts the immigration issues that the majority of Leavers wanted to address get reintroduced in nearly identical form as a priority following the exit.
I know you weren't the only one @JC
I didn't vote, as I knew I was moving back to NZ I didn't feel it was my place to vote on something so important for the U.K. I have regretted that ever since as being engaged to a Brit and (hopefully) having kids means either we or kids will likely live there again at some stage in the future.
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