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@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I’d be interested in people’s thoughts on this
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/great-green-wall-explainer/?linkId=75491238
Excellent initiative. I look at what Ethiopia is doing in a massive attempt to restore its forests. Apparently 30% of the country was forested in the 19th century, it's less than four per cent now.
China is also involved in a massive project to prevent the expansion of the Gobi desert which is another man made issue thanks to Mao.
Then there's this bloke doing it all himself:
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@antipodean said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I’d be interested in people’s thoughts on this
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/great-green-wall-explainer/?linkId=75491238
Excellent initiative. I look at what Ethiopia is doing in a massive attempt to restore its forests. Apparently 30% of the country was forested in the 19th century, it's less than four per cent now.
China is also involved in a massive project to prevent the expansion of the Gobi desert which is another man made issue thanks to Mao.
Then there's this bloke doing it all himself:
Phillipines and India are also in on these huge replanting projects too.
Then there’s disturbing thing
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/03/siberia-batagiaka-crater-climate-change/
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@jegga any tome you plant trees is a good idea. At least something physical is being done other than disrupting society, incessantly screaming a version of what everyone knows and simply pointing at leaders to change it all, with no coherent plan. (Same leaders that profit from tge status quo and are now going to benevolently fix it all!!)
Don't know if it'll work but infinitely better than just virtue signalling
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@jegga haha oh man that was a thing of beauty
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@No-Quarter said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@jegga haha oh man that was a thing of beauty
Complete ownage
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@TeWaio said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Loved that. I spent 3yrs of my life researching stuff related to this field.
Any insights you could share?
I know very little..but at least I know I know very little, extinction rebellion and the majority of social media posts are from folk who also know very little but think they know it all. I've met one guy who is an actual climate scientist and he knows less than what these religious fanatics somehow apparently know.
It's all very confusing.
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@TeWaio said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Loved that. I spent 3yrs of my life researching stuff related to this field, but man oh man Extinction Rebellion are painful. They are more a religion than a science.
I remember a classic thread back in the day where I think it was you that systematically took Winger's arguments apart.
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@No-Quarter said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@TeWaio said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Loved that. I spent 3yrs of my life researching stuff related to this field, but man oh man Extinction Rebellion are painful. They are more a religion than a science.
I remember a classic thread back in the day where I think it was you that systematically took Winger's arguments apart.
They made a video of one exchange with Winger/silver ( he’s silver on planet Rugby)
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@jegga said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@No-Quarter said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@TeWaio said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Loved that. I spent 3yrs of my life researching stuff related to this field, but man oh man Extinction Rebellion are painful. They are more a religion than a science.
I remember a classic thread back in the day where I think it was you that systematically took Winger's arguments apart.
They made a video of one exchange with Winger/silver ( he’s silver on planet Rugby)
Sorry... was that video sposed ot make that bloke Sefton look good? Because he seems like a muppet.
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@No-Quarter Hah yeah that was me, one of the funner moments on the Fern over the years, if only for the "wait a minute...!" factor.
@Rembrandt Well, the climate is definitely getting warmer, and atmospheric CO2 concentration is definitely going up. Historically we know those two things are linked from sampling the temperature vs CO2 relationship going back millions of years via drilling ice cores in the Arctic. So we're on fairly solid footing so far, scientifically.
Whether or not human activity is a) totally responsible for this, or b) just helping it along, or c) has had no impact whatsoever, is up for debate. But given the amount of fossil fuels burnt since the industrial revolution (that took millions of years worth of stored CO2 and whacked it into the atmosphere in very short order, geologically speaking), it's highly probably somewhere between a) and b).
The extent to which people are responsible is sort of a side issue, as the change is happening regardless. The debate then becomes how much effect a massive societal change to curb emissions would have on the entire climate system. If we ban flying, redistribute all the wealth, halt economic growth etc, and we still get 80% of the warming we would've got anyway, then it's probably not worth it. Instead we should crack on as we are with capitalism / economic growth and bet on technology allowing us to innovate our way out of the negative effects of climate change. That it the ideological/political fork in the road, and the left wing vs right wing solutions are obviously dramatically different. This is why it's such a politically charged issue (and why we're discussing it in the TSF politics forum).
Clearly it also depends on the extent of the damaging effects. No one has a definitive answer to that either, as the system is so ridiculously complex to model accurately. But most would agree it makes sense to err on the side of caution, as huge sea level rises / more frequent catastrophic natural disasters will have a big negative affect on society. 50cm sea level rises versus 20m is quite a big difference etc. The presence of possible feedback loops in climate, e.g. the melting of Arctic permafrost releasing methane and runaway warming, makes this even more unpredictable. That example is just one thing that we know might happen, there will also be "unknown unknowns" that (by definition) no one's considered.
Whatever happens, the poor will be affected more than the rich, developing world more than developed, East more than West etc. Which again makes it very political, especially as developed countries got to grow fast in the 20th century without caring about emissions, but now the developing world can't, or shouldn't, do the same? Again, you can take the view of making everyone more wealthy via economic growth, and using that to fuel development of technology to mitigate the effects is better than making everyone poorer by throwing human progress into reverse, but that's a political debate. You can probably tell which side I am on, and it's not Extinction Rebellion's.
Extinction Rebellion are a political / religious movement more than environmental. The idea "humanity has sinned and must repent or be destroyed" is an ancient, powerful story that has deep psychological appeal to humans, as any theologian could tell you. The whole shouty concept of "this is SUCH an emergency there is no time for nuance or debate and you must do as WE say" is really damaging and insidious, particularly the way it is being indoctrinated to children/adolescents. It is causing deep rooted psychological issues in young people, and doesn't help the above logical debates that need to take place in a rational society.
Whatever happens, people aren't going to "extinct", billions almost certainly won't die. But mass migration / hardening of borders is already happening, and will probably get worse. It will be the biggest challenge that humanity will face for decades/centuries to come IMO. NZ is very fortunate in its isolation, in this regard.
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@TeWaio Cheers, yep that's about where I sit on the situation which obviously makes me an evil rich corporate climate change denier in certain circles (normally with a few additional 'ist' descriptor words for good measure). Have you read anything of Bjorn Lomborg? Seems to make a lot of sense to me. The 90% reduction in mortality from climate events in the last 100 years being a good example of where a good economy saves lives and destroying such an economy to stop climate change would likely cost significantly more lives.
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@mariner4life said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@TeWaio god that is beautifully written.
Nobody can even muster a response in the most controversial thread on the Fern, which has to be a first.
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@mariner4life @No-Quarter thanks fellas
@Rembrandt have heard of Bjorn Lomborg quite a bit but never got round to reading any of his stuff, will do so now, thanks
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@TeWaio said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@mariner4life @No-Quarter thanks fellas
@Rembrandt have heard of Bjorn Lomborg quite a bit but never got round to reading any of his stuff, will do so now, thanks
Bjorn is pretty good. He's very pragmatic, very good with the numbers. Must be hard to keep beating the drum when nobody seeks to listen
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@TeWaio I guess my only argument is how do we know if that 20% reduction is worth it or not? By the time it happens it maybe too late.
The frustration for me is we know fossil fuels are bad and are causing issues, we know agriculture, in particular meat and dairy contribute heavily. We have the technology and knowledge now to make dramatic changes in these areas which is highly likely going to slow warming. Some govts are dragging their heels and allowing corporate giants to dictate the message.
I haven't lived in NZ for a long time but from the outside it appears the govt is at least trying. The Australian Govt on the other hand seems to favour jobs, economic growth and wealth ahead of the environment and long term outcomes. The fact we allowed a giant coal mine in ecologically important bush so a foreign company can profit tells you were we are at here.
Climate Change