Coronavirus - Australia
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Why can't ( or don't) people lockdown properly?
"Because they're stupid and or selfish" is a pretty superficial explanation.
Why are they so seemingly stupid and selfish?
How would have societies in the previous 4 decades reacted to lockdown? More conformity or less? I don't know.
I think the actual causes of this " disobedience " aren't being examined in any depth.
Could be, and probably is a myriad of factors:
No confidence in authorities
Simple narcissism
Conflicting information and misinformation from the media
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Have we bred this nonconformity and "rules don't apply to me" attitude with 2 decades of " your unique. Your special. Don't let society judge you" messaging we've given our youth?
A perception that the existential threat is not evidentThere's a lot of harm being realised in these strict lockdowns and I wonder if we haven't all misjudged the current psyche of the community and are holding them to a bygone era of nationalism and common solidarity. Like a teacher using the wrong methods to teach an unruly classroom, are we sure these tactics fit the purpose - because the financial and social bills are piling up while we flounder. Are we actually "playing what's in front of us" or simply using outdated tools and methods.
I don't know the answer, except herd immunity which is also perilous, but it's bloody depressing watching the Vic slow motion trainwreck everyday for the next 6 weeks.
Maybe this lockdown thing simply isn't possible to carry out with any degree of acceptable efficacy?
Surely everyone outside of Victoria senses their lockdown again time isnt far off.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Only one government in Australia incompetently managed the quarantine process permitting people to spread the virus. Blaming people for spreading it is ignoring the elephant in the room: They were able to because untrained, low paid security guards were responsible for administering quarantine.
Which is to ignore completely ignore the Ruby Process fiasco, and the Aspen Assholes Rich Persons Group. Who are still touring btw
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@booboo said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
So are you and your contacts OK with this (surely it must be an exaggeration)
They're not thrilled with it, but a lot of the people I know in Melbourne are not pointing the finger at the government alone.
Society - and our legal system - operates on the lowest common denominator, and a small percentage of people aren't acting like responsible adults. If fines, curfews, and limited movement is the price to pay for 4 weeks then the people I know are prepared to deal with it.
Maybe the should be. Its a heavy handed approach that very likely won't work. And this
All because 147 people died in the state of Victoria (total population is 6.359 million), almost all of the deaths are over 70 with comorbidities, same as everywhere else in the world.
Why not protect the vulnerable and let the rest get on with their life
I've asked you before @Winger : how do you "protect the vulnerable"?
One example. Ive a mate in the UK who has a weak immune system. He stayed at home and had his food delivered. This is one example. Another was an older friend who was healthy who just took extra steps. Like social distancing (they went out walking but avoided people) food delivered or if visiting a shop wearing masks in the shop.
But the onus would be on the vulnerable to take the needed steps. They would be given advise to follow to protect themselves and all the assistance they need.
Another step is temperature readers on public transport and shops
Re nursing homes etc. One step. Don't force nursing homes to take in sick people
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@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Only one government in Australia incompetently managed the quarantine process permitting people to spread the virus. Blaming people for spreading it is ignoring the elephant in the room: They were able to because untrained, low paid security guards were responsible for administering quarantine.
Which is to ignore completely ignore the Ruby Process fiasco, and the Aspen Assholes Rich Persons Group. Who are still touring btw
Seriously quoting the New Daily? Labor fluffers? The tracing conducted thus far and genomic fingerprinting all points back to the issues of untrained people running quarantine.
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@Siam said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Good post.
If 147,000 (including lots of healthy and all ages) had died then people would comply. But 147. This lock-down is totally over the top. I'm amazed there haven't been more non compliance.
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@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Good post.
If 147,000 (including lots of healthy and all ages) had died then people would comply. But 147. This lock-down is totally over the top. I'm amazed there haven't been more non compliance.
I hope you don't have elderly parents or other relatives or friends of advancing age, because you seem to have a laissez-faire attitude towards their welfare in the face of covid19
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@canefan is the guilt trip really necessary? It's ssooo March 2020!🙂
Elderley loved ones are always a dreadful telephone call or a serious medical diagnosis away at anytime. If you don't understand that, you simply haven't lived long enough.
Fact of life
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Good post.
If 147,000 (including lots of healthy and all ages) had died then people would comply. But 147. This lock-down is totally over the top. I'm amazed there haven't been more non compliance.
I hope you don't have elderly parents or other relatives or friends of advancing age, because you seem to have a laissez-faire attitude towards their welfare in the face of covid19
Im not young myself. And I certainly don't want young people lives to be f++ked up to (somehow) protect me. Its up to me to look after myself. To hell with this greater good nonsense. It just gives an excuse for nanny state control freak leaders to destroy everything. Including having fun.
These types of leaders will remove all our rights and freedoms, destroy the economy, fine people for minor infractions then lock people up etc. And then clamp down totally on our rights like free speech as things slowly go to hell, If we let them.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The tracing conducted thus far and genomic fingerprinting all points back to the issues of untrained people running quarantine.
You said - and I quote:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Only one government in Australia incompetently managed the quarantine process permitting people to spread the virus
So. Ruby Princess.
"Only one government"
Your move, Baron.
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@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The tracing conducted thus far and genomic fingerprinting all points back to the issues of untrained people running quarantine.
You said - and I quote:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Only one government in Australia incompetently managed the quarantine process permitting people to spread the virus
So. Ruby Princess.
"Only one government"
Your move, Baron.
Your evidence of uncontrolled community transmission from the Ruby Princess?
Your move Winger.
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The domino effect of the lack of controls from hotel quarantine which has lead to community transmission. Those infected whether unknown or known going to work and people continuing to congregate and mingle with the public. Deficiencies in contact tracing to stem the tide and a perfect storm of factors some definitely from the government’s making and decisions of people.
If you rewind a few weeks and look at the 13 or so LGAs that were locked down, they are areas with high proportion of migrants - European, middle eastern, African etc, some low socioeconomic areas. There are cultural issues at play with how some have responded to restrictions. This is not a criticism or slight, it’s just a fact that these communities congregate and continue to work. I know when I spoke with a couple of members of Vic Police they were getting calls/complaints around gatherings, party’s etc in those suburbs.
Also it is now clear that workers in aged care who had contracted Covid went to work because again many workers in that sector down here are from NESB and whilst dedicated to the work, tend to ‘soldier on’ and keep working.
I hope this is not misinterpreted, and yes there is now transmission in all parts of Melbourne, but the stubbornly high numbers are still in those outer north/west suburbs.
It’s tough down here for a lot of people more so than the previous lockdown period.
Round 2 of homeschooling the 5 ACT Jnrs and still working is quite the experience!!
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@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Good post.
If 147,000 (including lots of healthy and all ages) had died then people would comply. But 147. This lock-down is totally over the top. I'm amazed there haven't been more non compliance.
I hope you don't have elderly parents or other relatives or friends of advancing age, because you seem to have a laissez-faire attitude towards their welfare in the face of covid19
Im not young myself. And I certainly don't want young people lives to be f++ked up to (somehow) protect me. Its up to me to look after myself. To hell with this greater good nonsense. It just gives an excuse for nanny state control freak leaders to destroy everything. Including having fun.
These types of leaders will remove all our rights and freedoms, destroy the economy, fine people for minor infractions then lock people up etc. And then clamp down totally on our rights like free speech as things slowly go to hell, If we let them.
So pretty much you want maximum freedoms, and personal responsibility, like say the US? Its working out well for them right now....
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Good post.
If 147,000 (including lots of healthy and all ages) had died then people would comply. But 147. This lock-down is totally over the top. I'm amazed there haven't been more non compliance.
I hope you don't have elderly parents or other relatives or friends of advancing age, because you seem to have a laissez-faire attitude towards their welfare in the face of covid19
Im not young myself. And I certainly don't want young people lives to be f++ked up to (somehow) protect me. Its up to me to look after myself. To hell with this greater good nonsense. It just gives an excuse for nanny state control freak leaders to destroy everything. Including having fun.
These types of leaders will remove all our rights and freedoms, destroy the economy, fine people for minor infractions then lock people up etc. And then clamp down totally on our rights like free speech as things slowly go to hell, If we let them.
So pretty much you want maximum freedoms, and personal responsibility, like say the US? Its working out well for them right now....
The US reflects a battle between two opposing viewpoints.
One one side are the nanny state control freak politicians (who will totally serve the elite but say the right thing at election time) and their supporters who want a parent figure to look after them and make everything wonderful. Like Mum and Dad either did or failed to. And those who want people to mostly control their own lives with a smaller Govt that serves everyone not just the elite. While the people retain their rights and freedoms.
The former will lead to hell not paradise (as their supporters believe) and its up to the latter to fight to ensure it never happens. Or reverse it when it has (the response to Covid 19 shows it has already. Hell is already on its way starting with a f++ked economy and clamp down on on our rights and freedoms).
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@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Good post.
If 147,000 (including lots of healthy and all ages) had died then people would comply. But 147. This lock-down is totally over the top. I'm amazed there haven't been more non compliance.
I hope you don't have elderly parents or other relatives or friends of advancing age, because you seem to have a laissez-faire attitude towards their welfare in the face of covid19
Im not young myself. And I certainly don't want young people lives to be f++ked up to (somehow) protect me. Its up to me to look after myself. To hell with this greater good nonsense. It just gives an excuse for nanny state control freak leaders to destroy everything. Including having fun.
These types of leaders will remove all our rights and freedoms, destroy the economy, fine people for minor infractions then lock people up etc. And then clamp down totally on our rights like free speech as things slowly go to hell, If we let them.
So pretty much you want maximum freedoms, and personal responsibility, like say the US? Its working out well for them right now....
The US reflects a battle between two opposing viewpoints.
One one side are the nanny state control freak politicians (who will totally serve the elite but say the right thing at election time) and their supporters who want a parent figure to look after them and make everything wonderful. Like Mum and Dad either did or failed to. And those who want people to mostly control their own lives with a smaller Govt that serves everyone not just the elite. While the people retain their rights and freedoms.
The former will lead to hell not paradise (as their supporters believe) and its up to the latter to fight to ensure it never happens. Or reverse it when it has (the response to Covid 19 shows it has already. Hell is already on its way starting with a f++ked economy and clamp down on on our rights and freedoms).
I think your view is oversimplistic. It is often said that the Dems are a broad church, so to paint them with one brush is incorrect. As another poster pointed out the more radial left elements of which you speak are probably not happy with Biden because they see him as too moderate. There are many elements in the GOP too. I met a guy a couple of years ago who supported the GOP because it appealed to his sociomoral conservative views even though the economic benefits of the Dems policies benefited him more. What will stand a greater chance to unite Dems voters will not be Biden but their disdain for Trump
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The tracing conducted thus far and genomic fingerprinting all points back to the issues of untrained people running quarantine.
You said - and I quote:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Only one government in Australia incompetently managed the quarantine process permitting people to spread the virus
So. Ruby Princess.
"Only one government"
Your move, Baron.
Your evidence of uncontrolled community transmission from the Ruby Princess?
That actually isn't the point - your assertion is that Victoria's mistake was using security guards, and the government should be held solely responsible.
So, given WA also used security guards for their hotel quarantine, and yet have a case load far lower than Victoria per capita, does the same hold true?
It does not. The government has to shoulder part of the blame and individuals have to shoulder the rest.
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Your move Winger.
It is pretty clear from reading through this thread that you make a better bedfellow for Winger than I.
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@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The tracing conducted thus far and genomic fingerprinting all points back to the issues of untrained people running quarantine.
You said - and I quote:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Only one government in Australia incompetently managed the quarantine process permitting people to spread the virus
So. Ruby Princess.
"Only one government"
Your move, Baron.
Your evidence of uncontrolled community transmission from the Ruby Princess?
That actually isn't the point - your assertion is that Victoria's mistake was using security guards, and the government should be held solely responsible.
No, I'm the one not seeking to absolve blame from the authority responsible for the mess.
So, given WA also used security guards for their hotel quarantine, and yet have a case load far lower than Victoria per capita, does the same hold true?
The State Government is responsible for the management of quarantine facilities, with regular hotel staff providing assistance.
"The State Health Incident Coordination Centre has stringent protocols in place which are continually revisited to ensure currency and effectiveness," the Health Department said in a statement.
The department said there were nurses stationed on site 24 hours a day and private security contractors placed on all floors of the hotel, while police "ensure compliance with mandatory quarantine of returning travellers".
It also said all reported incidents were investigated and appropriate action was taken to ensure compliance.
[...]
Dr Lawrence said security staff were trained in how to use PPE and regular and random audits of the quarantine hotels took place.
She also said hotel quarantine in Perth operated differently to Melbourne.
"Many of the issues in Victoria appear to have come about from passengers leaving rooms and being escorted around hotel facilities. That does not happen in Perth," she said.
[...]
Health Minister Roger Cook said that while WA's quarantine system had been looked at in light of the weaknesses exposed in Victoria, a more thorough review was also conducted before that.
"That led to a number of changes including higher levels of training for security staff. It involved the proactive engagement of our medical teams in the hotels themselves, working closely with those security teams," he said.
"One of the things you saw in Victoria was that the whole process was contracted out. It's a very different approach in Western Australia."
Mr Cook said there was "daylight" between the standards that were in place in Victoria and those operating in WA.
It does not. The government has to shoulder part of the blame and individuals have to shoulder the rest.
Moving goal posts...
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Your move Winger.
It is pretty clear from reading through this thread that you make a better bedfellow for Winger than I.
If Winger suddenly started using logic and evidence, sure.
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@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Good post.
If 147,000 (including lots of healthy and all ages) had died then people would comply. But 147. This lock-down is totally over the top. I'm amazed there haven't been more non compliance.
I hope you don't have elderly parents or other relatives or friends of advancing age, because you seem to have a laissez-faire attitude towards their welfare in the face of covid19
Im not young myself. And I certainly don't want young people lives to be f++ked up to (somehow) protect me. Its up to me to look after myself. To hell with this greater good nonsense. It just gives an excuse for nanny state control freak leaders to destroy everything. Including having fun.
These types of leaders will remove all our rights and freedoms, destroy the economy, fine people for minor infractions then lock people up etc. And then clamp down totally on our rights like free speech as things slowly go to hell, If we let them.
So pretty much you want maximum freedoms, and personal responsibility, like say the US? Its working out well for them right now....
The US reflects a battle between two opposing viewpoints.
One one side are the nanny state control freak politicians (who will totally serve the elite but say the right thing at election time) and their supporters who want a parent figure to look after them and make everything wonderful. Like Mum and Dad either did or failed to. And those who want people to mostly control their own lives with a smaller Govt that serves everyone not just the elite. While the people retain their rights and freedoms.
The former will lead to hell not paradise (as their supporters believe) and its up to the latter to fight to ensure it never happens. Or reverse it when it has (the response to Covid 19 shows it has already. Hell is already on its way starting with a f++ked economy and clamp down on on our rights and freedoms).
In another thread I suggested that you have a read about positive and negative freedoms. The “freedom to “ and “freedom from”.
Did you do so and understand?
Wanting whole countries to act like teenagers cut loose from the apron strings without acknowledging repercussions isn’t really “good” freedom. -
@Crucial said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Winger said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Siam said in Coronavirus - Australia:
The lockdown rules just simply are inappropriate for living communities (animals confined to cages behave abnormally too)
Good post.
If 147,000 (including lots of healthy and all ages) had died then people would comply. But 147. This lock-down is totally over the top. I'm amazed there haven't been more non compliance.
I hope you don't have elderly parents or other relatives or friends of advancing age, because you seem to have a laissez-faire attitude towards their welfare in the face of covid19
Im not young myself. And I certainly don't want young people lives to be f++ked up to (somehow) protect me. Its up to me to look after myself. To hell with this greater good nonsense. It just gives an excuse for nanny state control freak leaders to destroy everything. Including having fun.
These types of leaders will remove all our rights and freedoms, destroy the economy, fine people for minor infractions then lock people up etc. And then clamp down totally on our rights like free speech as things slowly go to hell, If we let them.
So pretty much you want maximum freedoms, and personal responsibility, like say the US? Its working out well for them right now....
The US reflects a battle between two opposing viewpoints.
One one side are the nanny state control freak politicians (who will totally serve the elite but say the right thing at election time) and their supporters who want a parent figure to look after them and make everything wonderful. Like Mum and Dad either did or failed to. And those who want people to mostly control their own lives with a smaller Govt that serves everyone not just the elite. While the people retain their rights and freedoms.
The former will lead to hell not paradise (as their supporters believe) and its up to the latter to fight to ensure it never happens. Or reverse it when it has (the response to Covid 19 shows it has already. Hell is already on its way starting with a f++ked economy and clamp down on on our rights and freedoms).
In another thread I suggested that you have a read about positive and negative freedoms. The “freedom to “ and “freedom from”.
Did you do so and understand?
Wanting whole countries to act like teenagers cut loose from the apron strings without acknowledging repercussions isn’t really “good” freedom.The “freedom to “ and “freedom from”.
Not really interested. I know its not a simple black and white issue. But its easy to get lost in this mind numbing boring stuff and lose track of the big picture
What I'm referring to is the right such as
To live in a house without the police smashing the door down without a warrant.
Or the right of law abiding healthy citizens to go about their business without a Govt using a small number of deaths to remove this right
The right to speak or write freely without a cop knocking on the door because of some silly law to restrict this right (as shown in the Andrew Bolt case for eg)
The right to not be forced to undertake a (big pharma $ supported) medical procedure that may cause serious harm for the so called greater good.
The right to not be forced to wear a mask. I can accept wearing one for say 15 minutes max (as they are unhealthy if worn for too long) but not all day and not outside
ETCThese are key rights where covid 19 has been used as an excuse to remove them. And sadly (and worryingly) far too many have supported this process
I
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@Crucial said in Coronavirus - Australia:
anting whole countries to act like teenagers cut loose from the apron strings without acknowledging repercussions isn’t really “good” freedom.
Is this what you would do?
If so you need to grow up. If not stop assuming everyone is irresponsible like this. (Unlike you of course ) Most are responsible when circumstances justify it. But when Govt go overboard there will be resistance