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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@booboo said in US Politics:
those who had gone through WWII had the best interests of the country at heart (regardless of party), those subsequent perhaps more dogma and parochial interests. Clinton being the first post war President.
Interesting. Read there's been an big increase in the number of ex-Services people being elected to Congress in the last few years. They have formed a group to fight the partisan nastiness and inject grown up behaviour. Led by Tulsi Gabbard & Dan Crenshaw IIRC.
To think if Gabbard won the Prez comp, a Kiwi would become first dude (or whatever the term would be).
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/donald-trumps-america/114665278/meet-the-guitarstrumming-kiwi-surfer-dude-whos-become-us-presidential-candidate-tulsi-gabbards-secret-weapon -
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
That reads to me like he's hinting at a run in 2024? I sure hope not, he's senile as fuck already
So what does that make Joe?
And Trump won't run in 2024. If he can't win this time with 74 + million votes (an increase of around 10 million) he will never win again.
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
It was quite easy to make sound arguments for either side.
Perhaps there's a danger than only one side is seemingly allowed to hold sound arguments this time around?
It is also quite easy to see how one set of behaviour begets the next. Sound familiar?
The human condition. Treat people like animals and be surprised when they act like animals.
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I dunno about anyone else, but I'm having more than a little chuckle at the UK politicians who spent years trying to overturn the Brexit referendum, now suddenly being converted to the sanctity of election results and berating Trump for not accepting the election result....
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@Bones said in US Politics:
A black man wouldn’t have made it into the capitol building. He would have been shot dead.
Discuss.
You mean more would have been shot, because at least four were?
I really think the lack of more shooting had much more to do with the police being so outnumbered and seemingly unprepared. At 4:55 in the video below one officer trying to hold back hundreds flooding in a single entry point. Indiscriminate shooting isn't a terribly good strategy at that point.
We have seen the same dynamic with the BLM riots where the authorities quickly realize they are overwhelmed.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
Can't disagree with any of that, but the likes of Biden, Obama, Clinton & Pelosi share equal blame for the inflammatory language they have spewed out against Trump and his supporters these last 4-5 years.
I'll give you a couple of those but where was Obama inflammatory? If anything he seemed like one of the few Dems who understood the election strategy of making any 2016 Trump voter wanting to switch to Biden in 2020 crawl over broken glass, beg for forgiveness and be publicly flogged was counterproductive.
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@TeWaio said in US Politics:
Mike Pence has just changed his twitter banner to a photo of Biden and Harris 😅 and unfollowed Trump
No and No. It's a photo of Pence and his wife. And he didn't unfollow Trump. Both were widely reported and incorrectly reported.
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A rumour from inside the Beltway is that Trump has been trying to negotiate impunity from prosecution after he leaves office. Apparently, yesterday was meant to be a show of force of what his supporters might do if asked, but it got all rather out of hand. Certainly it was very ugly and damaging for the reputation of the USA. A otherwise peaceful transition is now crucially important.
I've been impressed by both Pence and Biden in the last 24 hours. Trump and Giuliani less so. The sooner those two disappear from public view the better for the rest of us.
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@Winger said in US Politics:
If he can't win this time with 74 + million votes (an increase of around 10 million) he will never win again.
Winger, saying this same thing over and over again doesn’t make it any better an argument.
Even setting aside the electoral college element, your argument about the total popular vote is flawed. The election is not just an enumeration of Trump votes. Stating that he got 10m more votes is not relevant in isolation, you also need to take into account the additional votes the Democrat voters cast.
Remember that Trump actually received fewer popular votes than Clinton in 2016 (63m vs 66m more or less). So in fact although Trump received 11.2m more votes in 2020, the first 3m were just to catch up to where Clinton ended up, even if the Democrats had just stood still. But they didn’t. For reasons well rehearsed here and elsewhere, Biden was a much more attractive proposition that Clinton was, and his vote was a massive 15,437,949 higher than she received. So 11m more people voted for Trump, but 15m more voted for Biden.
Now you can argue all you want about the legitimacy of the votes cast, but let’s stop throwing around the “10 million” votes Trump got as if it means anything by itself, shall we?
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@MajorRage I think the argument that Winger has been making for a while now is that the Democrats can’t possibly have won because Trump got 10m more votes than he got last time. But that’s without taking into account that there were nearly 27m more votes cast this time.
I agree Trump is done, but it’s not because he has had the 10 or 11 million additional votes he got cancelled out by fraudulent votes. It’s because for every 2 additional people who were motivated to support him this time around, 3 additional people got off their arses and voted for the Democrat candidate.
This whole vote fraud argument bemuses me. It’s as if there is no possibility that any of the Trump votes are suspect, but all the Biden ones are. When did the Republicans get a monopoly on probity?
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@rotated not to be a pedant but only one person was shot. The others sound like medical issues like heart attacks etc. The woman who was killed was shot by secret service rather than a member of the police force. At that point I'm pretty sure the SS were blocking access to the inner chambers while people were being evacuated. Then they gapped it and we ended up with those muppets taking selfies in the chamber.
It shows the failure by authorities in getting caught out by the riot - there had been plenty of coverage (inc from the folks going to the rally) that things would likely kick off. Can't recall who had requested the national guard be deployed but got turned down - so I guess that person wanted more security available.
imo if this had been a BLM rally/protest there would have been a much bigger police and national guard force ready to manage things. But that'd be due to how things went last year with other protests turned riots - ie lessons learned. Not sure if that would translate into more shooting from enforcement, but I'd have expected a lot more tear gas and less-lethal bullets would have been used well before people got anywhere near the Capitol building.
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@rotated said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
Can't disagree with any of that, but the likes of Biden, Obama, Clinton & Pelosi share equal blame for the inflammatory language they have spewed out against Trump and his supporters these last 4-5 years.
I'll give you a couple of those but where was Obama inflammatory? If anything he seemed like one of the few Dems who understood the election strategy of making any 2016 Trump voter wanting to switch to Biden in 2020 crawl over broken glass, beg for forgiveness and be publicly flogged was counterproductive.
Obama has a long history of insulting Trump - once calling his presidency a "two-bit dictatorship" - and said this of blue-collar Republican voters.
" .... they are bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Not that much different to Clinton's deplorables, but Obama was smart enough to make them at a private fund-raiser but not smart enough to know they were being recorded.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@rotated said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
Can't disagree with any of that, but the likes of Biden, Obama, Clinton & Pelosi share equal blame for the inflammatory language they have spewed out against Trump and his supporters these last 4-5 years.
I'll give you a couple of those but where was Obama inflammatory? If anything he seemed like one of the few Dems who understood the election strategy of making any 2016 Trump voter wanting to switch to Biden in 2020 crawl over broken glass, beg for forgiveness and be publicly flogged was counterproductive.
Obama has a long history of insulting Trump - once calling his presidency a "two-bit dictatorship" - and said this of blue-collar Republican voters.
" .... they are bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Not that much different to Clinton's deplorables, but Obama was smart enough to make them at a private fund-raiser but not smart enough to know they were being recorded.
Trump himself is fair game surely.
One quote from over a decade ago doesn't really support the proposition he has been inflammatory over the past 4-5 years. In fact that selective quote, in it's entirety was actually an astute observation at the time and reflects well on him IMO (what he did to help things is another question obviously)
*"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.
And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."*
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Washington D.C. police and federal investigators have begun the process of trying to identify rioters photographed occupying the United States Capitol on Wednesday.
D.C. police have posed 38 images of individuals suspected of unlawful entry during a violent insurrection carried out during the final Congressional vote recording for the 2020 general election.
Local police are offering rewards of “up to $1,000” for help identifying photographed individuals, according to an online posting from the DC Police website.One of these guys is well known if you are a fan of a particular US heavy metal band from Tampa.
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@JC said in US Politics:
Now you can argue all you want about the legitimacy of the votes cast,
But this is the main issue. One that no one has looked at. Not the courts (no one or group seems to have standing). Not the Senate or congress. Various parties have got lots of 'evidence' but no one or body with the power is willing to look at it. And this means all future election are almost meaningless. A future that many seem to support. My view is with the Great Reset (build back better etc) the Wests future will be (very) grim if this isn't addressed now. Where the elite and their puppets will go on a path (you won't own any property and will be happy) that can't be stopped through the election process.
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@Kiwiwomble absolutely - there has been a huge difference in the public messaging (ie lots of evidence of fraud) and what has actually been said in court. Very telling given only one of those settings has legal implications for lying isn't it. Not one case has been picked up as the lawyers for Trump (inc Guliani) have not tabled sufficient evidence for the case to proceed. So the assertion that it hasn't been looked into, and that there is evidence that isn't being considered, is incorrect. I think there were 1-2 'wins' for Trump but those were around maintaining the segregation of some ballots so they could be checked out, and nothing came of that as they were legit.
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