-
With respect Siam, this can't simply be dismissed as a just a "Channel 4 doco". That might have berb the case if the guy in charge was a Ukiper or BNP member. But it's the exact opposite. He's actually the guy who coined or at least popularised the term "Islamaphobia".
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="572200" data-time="1460608004">
<div>
<p>With respect Siam, this can't simply be dismissed as a just a "Channel 4 doco". That might have berb the case if the guy in charge was a Ukiper or BNP member. But it's the exact opposite. He's actually the guy who coined or at least popularised the term "Islamaphobia".</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>And lets not forget that we all lament a lack of quality journalism, too much Gypsy Wedding! And a channel does look deeper at an important issue and it is discounted because it is on a channel that has ads.</p> -
<p>5 quotes on an article ostensibly advertising a TV show is hardly a cure all for the problems of British multiculturalism. It's an advertisement for a tv show</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Think you might be over egging this a bit</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Sure it contains encouraging quotes but I know there are community based projects working daily on society integration which achieve much more than a guy speaking to a newspaper. These programs actually reach the people we'd like to educate. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>here's one we can relate to. It's got Moeen Ali as a spokesman. Surely you agree he can reach affected people better than a rich white male</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.chancetoshine.org/'>http://www.chancetoshine.org/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Do you want to solve the problem or have white wealthy males all nodding in agreement that we're all in big trouble?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What impact or exposure to a telegraph article and a C4 tv show will have to the people in these ghettoes? </p> -
Trevor Phillips is black.
-
Sorry what does growing the game of Cricket have to do with problems caused by multiculturalism?<br><br>
I'm not sure what your solution is Siam, other then to do nothing and punish anyone that steps out of line on a case by case basis? We are seeing repeat incidents of attacks from people preaching the same ideology and you propose to do nothing? I'm not sure that would go down well with the familes that have lost loved ones to senseless violence in the name of Islam.<br><br>
Do you agree with the statement:<br><br>
Islam is an ideology that preaches hate and intolerance<br><br>
?<br><br>
If you agree, how can you not want to condemn it? -
<p>He is not only black but up until a couple of years ago he would have been the very LAST person to be saying the things he is currently saying. He was the poster child and political activist for exactly the sort of things he is now criticising. He isn't rabid, he is actually quite measured and it makes for a very interesting study.</p>
<p>The fact he said what I quoted in the thread title is very interesting. Perhaps those who criticised my choice of thread title did not realise that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also he does incredible work at the coal face and has dedicated much of his life to the cause of outreach to the disadvantaged. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="572242" data-time="1460615557">
<div>
<p>Sorry what does growing the game of Cricket have to do with problems caused by multiculturalism?<br><br>
I'm not sure what your solution is Siam, other then to do nothing and punish anyone that steps out of line on a case by case basis? We are seeing repeat incidents of attacks from people preaching the same ideology and you propose to do nothing? I'm not sure that would go down well with the familes that have lost loved ones to senseless violence in the name of Islam.<br><br>
Do you agree with the statement:<br><br>
Islam is an ideology that preaches hate and intolerance<br><br>
?<br><br>
If you agree, how can you not want to condemn it?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Ok my bad</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The thread starts out saying that Europe and UK are in Big trouble and that multicultiralism is not working</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I contend that MC is here to stay and in fact most of us if not all have spent our entire lives in multicultural societies and that MC is not going away and will become more prevalent.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also wonder if the ills of MC aren't forced down our throats as we buy saris to wear, grab tacos and stir fry and kebabs to eat. Are we living in our world or in tv world? Serious question.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>It is a great vehicle to leap on a bandwagon that spouts "you're the problem, yes all of you, and if you fuck off we'll all be rosy again" A little bit like the KKK doctrines IMO</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Amidst MC in the UK and Europe, certain Islam ghettoes have risen and people are making observations about nations within nations and the youth "flocking" (presumably more than one in a thousand) to join jihadi groups and there is a " danger of sacrificing a generation of young British people to values that are antithetical to the beliefs of most of us, including many Muslims" (a generation? fuck! You mean every british kid? fuck!) </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I contend that MC isn't to blame as much as a disenfranchise with British society, and a British way of life. The same shit that plagues all countries in 2016. I say this because non muslims join up</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think young people are joining these groups because they think they offer a connection to something (just like gangs do). I think a better solution than telling people "no you can't" is to offer alternatives and explain why joining jihadis, gangs or the KKK is not what it seems. I have first hand experience with young people becoming motorbike couriers of drugs because they have nothing else to do. These kids are excellent young people but have no obvious way ahead and don't turn "bad" or psycho, they just want to belong to something tangibly good in life (food or money or experiences with others - laughing or being part of a group). If I had the resources I'd give them jobs and things to earn and they'd thrive</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think providing a cricket group or a boxing club is a better use of time and energy than spouting "multiculturalism has failed". </p>
<p> </p>
<p>My solution is to provide people with jobs, education and non destructive groups to belong to.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My solution is fucking difficult and time and resource consuming. My solution will be pilloried as bullshit, just like depression and concussion was</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My solution is what we do to family members</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't know how it feels to be disenfranchised and I don't know how it feels to hate the establishment, but I do think labelling a social group in absolute terms tends to galvanise and further disenfranchise that group</p>
<p> </p>
<p>To your question - how can I say no, when we've seen people "representing" the religion say that? Does it DEFINE (a word I've used a lot) the religion, in my opinion and experience no.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam is an ideology that readily demonstrates charity and historical academic endeavour - just as true?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam doesn't have a monopoly on disgusting human behaviour. It happens everywhere with far less media coverage. Buddhism is supposed to be the peaceful religion. The shit that goes on in Buddhist societies is atrocious. But no buddhist terrorists. I say no cunting psychos who <em>claim</em> to be buddhist terrorists. Moreover it doesn't get hysterical TV coverage. Google Pattani or Yala province to see the mother of all Islamic terrorism. They want their land back</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/'>http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>I've lived too long to tar all groups of people with the same brush - it doesn't add up</p>
<p> </p>
<p>My first post in this thread talked about the application of laws.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Britain and Europe have failed to define or apply effective laws, and as a result they've got shitty behaviour to deal with.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We all agree with this and Trev concedes this, but let's all throw our hands in the air and point at a diverse group and say "it's all your fault". Then go back to our safe, comfortable lives and wait for the next TV show to rekindle our hate and despair that suburban Tauranga is a very dangerous part of a very dangerous world because there's "every chance" a terrorist will get me.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And all the while Rupert Murdoch grins</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Deal with the individual people initiating the crimes and the individual people mesmerized with the crimes. Get specific. Identify the leaders (this is happening), be consistent with police operations, show people why it's a shitty idea to support these jihadhis, stop dramatising them, give people something else to do. Use people they can relate to (Maori warden examples) Enforce the laws uniformly. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I can't guarantee my solution will work but I guarantee one thing</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Telling people their religion is fucked and not welcome will never stop them believing </p>
<p> </p>
<p>(for what it's worth, I think all religion is fucked but I don't waste my time and credibility by telling my wife her buddhism is a load of shit - showing alternative theories has definitely broadened her outlook though)</p> -
<p>Multiculturalism has failed. It is a failed policy in the UK, in the sense that multiculturalism is used in the article. Fundamentally you have admitted that as you are talking about solutions, if there wasn't a problem, you wouldn't need solutions.</p>
<p>So many western countries have a problem, you are talking about solutions to the existing problem, some of your ideas are good. But it is ambulance at the bottom of the cliff stuff. What is the point in integrating 100 migrants a day if you are also concurrently alienating 500 via either a dangerous ideology or new migration?</p>
<p>I have never said existing residents should be removed, what I am saying is turn off the tap! Sort he current shite out... and then analyse what went wrong that you needed to put so much effort into stopping immigrants or children of immigrants from hating the country they live in.</p>
<p>I actually agree that criticizing a religion would not work to change heavily religious peoples minds. They are set, but it is very possible to temper moderates opinions, and to show that a barbaric ideology exists with Islam. I know this true because it has already occurred within Christianity. The fact that any criticism of Islam as a doctrine is attacked so aggressively is an incredibly strong sign that extremism will flourish.</p>
<p>It has got to the point where even arguing that Islam is the most dangerous mass followed doctrine in the world is seen as Islamophobia, Which is illustrative. </p>
<p>The Islamic ideology is aggresive and dangerous, not only in its texts.. but in its application in modern society, its aggressive assertion of superiority. Sure other religions had similar delusions, but they have all been criticised openly and to the point that where if any Christian priest spouted the things that many Immans spout.. it would be international news. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think when you get to the point where any criticism of an ideology is denegrated, you have a serious problem. Combine that with a extremely expansionist ideology... add a touch of violence instructed by God.. and you have a massive problem. And then for the cherry on top... you import that into a western culture. :idiot2:</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">It is a great vehicle to leap on a bandwagon that spouts "you're the problem, yes all of you, and if you fuck off we'll all be rosy again" A little bit like the KKK doctrines IMO
<p> </p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nobody has said anything like that, in fact many have been at pains to point out that you cannot blame all Muslims, but you can criticise and examine an ideology that runs contrary to many western values.</p>
<p>You are just attacking a straw man. I do blame the Islamic ideology for a lot of the problems discussed. Even more so I blame the appeasement culture of the west that has a fit when anyone tries to criticise it. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="572256" data-time="1460621042">
<div>
<p>error</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I had typed out an answer to that question. Why did you delete it?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572141" data-time="1460599864"><p>Are you saying it does not matter if change is good or evil? Because change happens?<br>
That appears to be what you are saying.</p></blockquote>
<br>
I don't know how I missed this post. <br><br>
Only appears that way in your micro world BSG. <br><br>
I'm saying that the multiculturalism change happening in New Zealand is acceptable to<br>
Me -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="572255" data-time="1460620937">
<div>
<p>I contend that MC is here to stay and in fact most of us if not all have spent our entire lives in multicultural societies and that MC is not going away and will become more prevalent.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also wonder if the ills of MC aren't forced down our throats as we buy saris to wear, grab tacos and stir fry and kebabs to eat. Are we living in our world or in tv world? Serious question.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>It is a great vehicle to leap on a bandwagon that spouts "you're the problem, yes all of you, and if you fuck off we'll all be rosy again" A little bit like the KKK doctrines IMO</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Amidst MC in the UK and Europe, certain Islam ghettoes have risen and people are making observations about nations within nations and the youth "flocking" (presumably more than one in a thousand) to join jihadi groups and there is a " danger of sacrificing a generation of young British people to values that are antithetical to the beliefs of most of us, including many Muslims" (a generation? fuck! You mean every british kid? fuck!) </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I contend that MC isn't to blame as much as a disenfranchise with British society, and a British way of life. The same shit that plagues all countries in 2016. I say this because non muslims join up</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't want to get in between the participants here, but can I just point out that the multiculturalism that the Daily Telegraph, who wrote the article BSG linked to allude to, is not simply multiple cultures living together. It's an ideology-driven set of policies that encourages different cultural groups to live alongside one another without requiring, or even encouraging, integration or interaction. New Labour in the UK specifically moved away from policies which encouraged "interculturalism" and formally adopted a model that encouraged cultural uniqueness and diversity.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's interesting, Siam, that you point out the rise of Islamic ghettos in the UK, as these have risen in part due to national and local government policy. It was well-intentioned but in retrospect it doesn't appear to have been the best idea because it meant that different ethnic and religious groups didn't have to even try and understand each other, as they were enabled to live large parts of their lives without leaving their own immediate community.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But New Labour came into power nearly 20 years ago, and in the interim you have a generation of children born into these "ghettos" that's now in its late teens, who like the feeling of belonging that such a setup allows but bemoan the inevitable downside: they can't readily fit into a workforce they have avoided training for and never interacted with, and they resent the impact on their lives. What you call disenfranchisement is to some extent simply people wanting to have their cake and eat it. They have chosen to avoid the outside world but somehow think it nevertheless owes them a living, or at least a job. I imagine that young people who live like this are easy pickings for fiery talkers who give them someone to blame and an easy answer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>From that perspective the experiment has indeed been a failure I think.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I suspect the bainlieues of Paris aren't much different</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="572265" data-time="1460623744">
<div>
<p>I don't know how I missed this post.<br><br>
Only appears that way in your micro world BSG.<br><br>
I'm saying that the multiculturalism change happening in New Zealand is acceptable to<br>
Me</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>
Micro world because I asked you a question to clarify? err ok</p>
<p>Your clarification makes far more sense than the original.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JC" data-cid="572270" data-time="1460624781">
<div>
<p>I don't want to get in between the participants here, but can I just point out that the multiculturalism that the Daily Telegraph, who wrote the article BSG linked to allude to, is not simply multiple cultures living together. It's an ideology-driven set of policies that encourages different cultural groups to live alongside one another without requiring, or even encouraging, integration or interaction. New Labour in the UK specifically moved away from policies which encouraged "interculturalism" and formally adopted a model that encouraged cultural uniqueness and diversity.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's interesting, Siam, that you point out the rise of Islamic ghettos in the UK, as these have risen in part due to national and local government policy. It was well-intentioned but in retrospect it doesn't appear to have been the best idea because it meant that different ethnic and religious groups didn't have to even try and understand each other, as they were enabled to live large parts of their lives without leaving their own immediate community.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But New Labour came into power nearly 20 years ago, and in the interim you have a generation of children born into these "ghettos" that's now in its late teens, who like the feeling of belonging that such a setup allows but bemoan the inevitable downside: they can't readily fit into a workforce they have avoided training for and never interacted with, and they resent the impact on their lives. What you call disenfranchisement is to some extent simply people wanting to have their cake and eat it. They have chosen to avoid the outside world but somehow think it nevertheless owes them a living, or at least a job. I imagine that young people who live like this are easy pickings for fiery talkers who give them someone to blame and an easy answer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>From that perspective the experiment has indeed been a failure I think.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I suspect the bainlieues of Paris aren't much different</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying better than I have about the differences of multiculturism between Europe and here.</p> -
<p>Interesting point JC and yes the methodology of New Labour (can we now re-name this Outmoded Labour?) smacks of social engineering. Interesting too that in the article quoted by BSG the protagonist, while admitting that these policies have not worked is simply suggesting more social engineering, just in a different direction. Would www really want to place our trust in those that have signally failed in the past despite their apparent qualifications of being:-</p>
<p> </p>
<p>1. Human rights commissioner</p>
<p>2. Black</p>
<p>3. Political activist for (his view of) multiculturalism</p>
<p>4. Left wing politician</p>
<p>5. Populiser of the term "Islamophobia"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't much like these discussions as they often bring out the worst in people who are in the main quite normal. I hate it that people that normally I would be happy to argue a point with exhibit blatantly sectarian views or others that seem ignorant of how PC policies and outlooks in the west are causing so much discord. I sometimes wonder if some of you guys actually take in anything the other side are saying or just stick with your views.</p> -
<p>Ok, I'll start of slowly for these replies:</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="572026" data-time="1460577833">
<div>
<p>Except you guys have just shown you didnt actually read the article I linked to.</p>
<p>It was a direct quote from the article form the ex Human rights and equalities commissioner in the UK he was also a left wing politician. </p>
<p>So claims it is an incorrect thread title is frankly a bit silly and just trying to deflect.</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>You decided on this thread title. You chose a quote with a word with a broad meaning (especially down here in the Southern Hemisphere) and applied it to something specific. Then you wrote post after post about Islam. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Calling the title incorrect isn't deflecting from anything, I discussed the data in the article - which in turn should alert you to the fact I did read the article..</p>
<p style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(247,247,247);"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(247,247,247);"> </p>
<br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p> </p>
<p style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(247,247,247);"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(247,247,247);">As for shouting down,... classic Bullshit form those wanting to close down debate. The only attempting shutting down of debate in this thread is coming from those who think that there is nothing wrong with Islam.</p>
<p style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(247,247,247);"> </p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't want to shut down debate, but in general not much debate tends to go on in these types of threads - although I will say this particular one has seen more actual polite debate than similar ones. I don't think anyone on this thread has said there is <em>nothing</em> wrong with Islam. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="572096" data-time="1460593741">
<div>
<p>Great post in total Nepia, but I can't agree with you on the above. But I don't want to diverge this topic, so I'll just say that in my opinion, the above is just flat out wrong.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I think it's ok to diverge the topic, there's a few diversions already. I'm actually interested in what is actually flat out wrong in those two comments - remembering that I was discussing the multicultural aspects of Singapore's society and not solely immigration. Plus, I'm pretty certain that Sweden has been frequently brought up in similar threads - but of course I'm way too lazy to search for it. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="572128" data-time="1460596764">
<div>
<p><strong>People need to draw a distinction between Islam and Muslims.</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam is the ideology. Muslims are the people. You can attack Islam without attacking Muslims - I think that point is lost on a number of posters here. It's great that you know plenty of Muslims who "interpret" Islam differently to the fundamentalists and that they are lovely people that would never hurt a fly. I know plenty as well. But that doesn't mean I won't criticise their religion as being fundamentally flawed. As Sam Harris said, the only reason Muslim fundamentalism is a threat to us is because the fundamentals of Islam are a threat to us. If most Muslims do not agree with the fundamentals of their religion then their religion is badly flawed. This point cannot be overstated.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Comparing Maori (race) with Islam (idea) doesn't work. </strong>There is no ideology that Maori follow that states it is OK to abuse children. There is a very clear directive in Islam to destroy all infidels (I.E. non-believers or believers of another religion). Why should we tolerate an ideology that preaches intolerance?!</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Islam is not the only religion I will criticise harshly, but it is by far the most violent of the modern religions. They are all based on absolute nonsense and they all cause huge issues in society. A Christian and a Muslim may "tolerate" each other, but they will also look down on each other as following the wrong God etc. By design that creates tension and conflict. Dispelling the myths of religion is one of the most important issues facing man kind today IMO.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I think you're guilty of not doing the bold when responding to my comment - I specifically discuss Muslims not Islam, and Muslims as a 'group' (ideology or not they can be grouped) - like any religion, not all Muslim's interpret the religion in the same way - why do Western nations tolerate the Christian ideology that preaches intolerance? And here is where you and I agree, lets criticise the religion, but lets not criticise all the people who follow that religion. And to reiterate, my point was that the stat that 47% of respondents thought Muslims should do more to combat terrorism wasn't really relevant to anything. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">Re: multiculturalism. Problems will always arise because you are taking two different groups of people with different beliefs and asking them to find a middle ground. There will be conflict while that middle ground is found. Some cultures will mix better then others. When you mix Islam into Western culture, the beliefs are so different that a middle ground simply cannot be found, and the conflict escalates as we are seeing in Europe.</blockquote>
<p>The differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants, and both groups with Jews at certain times in history have been as big I assume you think the people of the West and Muslims are right now. I agree there will be conflict while middle ground is found and I think history bares that out with a bunch of peoples.</p> -
"And here is where you and I agree, lets criticise the religion, but lets not criticise all the people who follow that religion."<br><br>
Problem is how do you criticise the religion without it being perceived as an attack on, you know, the people who actually follow that religion?
The Failed policy of Multiculturalism