European Politics
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Yep. the issues isn't simply immigration, it's integration.
There was a government report done here a few years ago which looked at integration and found it had gone backwards in the last decade or so - e.g. increasing numbers of second-generation immigrants marrying spouses from their country of their parents' origin.
It also cited cases of British-born Muslim teenagers going to University without ever having socialised with a non-Muslim.
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For all its racial discord, the US has it right with the citizenship process for new immigrants
Proud to be an American
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@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits. The majority of them lived and worked/slaved in conditions of poverty and squalor you couldn't even comprehend. They assimilated into society as best they could in the US, Canada, Australia etc and practically built these nations.
Today, Ireland is the most generous country in the world, per head of population, for donations to third world countries. It has taken in more refugees, per capita, than any other country in Europe in the last few years. These immigrants arrive, are given places to stay, warmth, electricity, water, food and the same social benefits that the Irish get without having contributed in any way. There is zero comparison to Irish immigrants and what's happening now in the EU and Ireland in particular. -
The problem isn't so much "immigration" as a whole but the type of immigration being done and the support services around it.
Immigration targeted to fill skill/labor gaps and which has the subsequent immigration support so they can get housed, find jobs integrate into society all good.
Refugees for the sake of "being nice" well nothing wrong with that either but that's more difficult as it's not like the refugees skills are addressing a shortage in the job market, hence finding employment is more difficult. Again unless there is support around them to house, feed, clothe, educate so they can speak the language, find jobs refuges will find it difficult in integrate into their new country.
Then there's literally forced migration, in which I include illegal immigration - where people who claim to be refuges turn up by boat or invade the border, this isn't great as it seeks to bypass or simply overwhelm the immigration system and that system needs to work in order for successful immigration/integration to take place.
Done poorly you end up with the worst of both worlds - you get an unvetted migrant population (who at best maybe earnestly seeking to improve them and their families lives and at worst murderers, criminal and rapists seeking to take their enterprise from one part of the world to another) that is angry and isolated from the general population. They can't speak the language, they can't get a job, they can't "fit in" with the general populace (who all appear to be doing better than why they are) they feel they are left to feed on the scraps of society, sticking to your own follows and unfortunately hate and crime aren't far behind.
Then you have a general population with an increased cost of living, increased rents/mortgages, increased problems making ends meet, increased issues finding a job while watching their government spending millions and millions of dollars on migrants who are "doing it tough so we should be nice". Well yes, that works for awhile until you start doing it tough yourself - then the question is asked "why can't you be nice to me, when I've lived here and paid taxes here all my life - don't I matter?"
Now for a government to take all of the above and say that anyone who complains about immigration is "far - right" without the same government taking some accountability for the mess they've created or seen to have some introspection into their policy's and shortcomings it only makes the situation worse.
Being arrogant and patronizing "don't criticize this government - you're just a racist" especially when social indicators are plunging into the toilet does nothing to fix a complex situation.
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@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits. The majority of them lived and worked/slaved in conditions of poverty and squalor you couldn't even comprehend. They assimilated into society as best they could in the US, Canada, Australia etc and practically built these nations.
Today, Ireland is the most generous country in the world, per head of population, for donations to third world countries. It has taken in more refugees, per capita, than any other country in Europe in the last few years. These immigrants arrive, are given places to stay, warmth, electricity, water, food and the same social benefits that the Irish get without having contributed in any way. There is zero comparison to Irish immigrants and what's happening now in the EU and Ireland in particular.Ireland - truly the Ethan Blackadder of countries.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in European Politics:
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits. The majority of them lived and worked/slaved in conditions of poverty and squalor you couldn't even comprehend. They assimilated into society as best they could in the US, Canada, Australia etc and practically built these nations.
Today, Ireland is the most generous country in the world, per head of population, for donations to third world countries. It has taken in more refugees, per capita, than any other country in Europe in the last few years. These immigrants arrive, are given places to stay, warmth, electricity, water, food and the same social benefits that the Irish get without having contributed in any way. There is zero comparison to Irish immigrants and what's happening now in the EU and Ireland in particular.Ireland - truly the
EthanEdmund Blackadder of countries. -
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits. The majority of them lived and worked/slaved in conditions of poverty and squalor you couldn't even comprehend. They assimilated into society as best they could in the US, Canada, Australia etc and practically built these nations.
You had me nodding right up until this last sentence.
Today, Ireland is the most generous country in the world, per head of population, for donations to third world countries. It has taken in more refugees, per capita, than any other country in Europe in the last few years. These immigrants arrive, are given places to stay, warmth, electricity, water, food and the same social benefits that the Irish get without having contributed in any way.
I can tell from your wording here that you are on the "correct" side to be on. You obviously think that that last sentence is just fantastic, where as the crux of this discussion is that some don't and are largely ignored and / or beaten down by the "correct" side. Debate is to how much of this is the leading cause of the disruptions seen.
As I said, I don't know enough about Irish politics to have a deep view here, but I do believe that this and the Netherlands vote are linked to the same issue, which cannot have the can continually kicked down the road.
There is zero comparison to Irish immigrants and what's happening now in the EU and Ireland in particular.
To be fair, I don' think there was any malice or ignorance in this comment. Standard one liner about hypocrisy(which there is) without meaning to take on all the context you point out (also correct).
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@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
The discussion really isn't about immigration, it's about integration, assimilation and the people affected by immigration and refugee numbers being ignored and/or denigrated. It's a mix causing social issues which we are seeing everywhere in Europe from Poland all the way thru The Netherland to Ireland.
Ignoring it and hoping it goes away won't solve the problem - nor will feeling collectively virtuous about how wonderful the number of immigrants a country hosts.
BTW, Ireland is actually ranked 8th in the OECD at $268 per capita pa between 2018-22 for foreign aid. In contrast, Denmark & Norway gave $471 & $810 respectively. link . Similarly, Ireland ranks 11th out of EU countries and takes in about half the refugees, per capita that Sweden, Germany and Austria do. link
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@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits.
It's a strange way to commit genocide by permitting hundreds of thousands to migrate to Liverpool, Bradford, Manchester, etc.
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@antipodean said in European Politics:
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits.
It's a strange way to commit genocide by permitting hundreds of thousands to migrate to Liverpool, Bradford, Manchester, etc.
You may not be aware of just how delicate this subject is for many Irish. The only thing I can think if anywhere near this for you guys would be dismissing the sacrifices made at Gallipoli. Not quite the same thing but very close in terms of national emotion.
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@antipodean said in European Politics:
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits.
It's a strange way to commit genocide by permitting hundreds of thousands to migrate to Liverpool, Bradford, Manchester, etc.
Also worth pointing out that they were not treated particularly well when they arrived here, 'No blacks, no dogs, no Irish' signs were up on pubs, lodgings and hotels in living memory.
Our history with the irish isn't sparkling, but Ireland is a miracle of western democracy development over the last 100 years and they are rightly proud of that. Unlike someone mentioned above, my experience of Ireland is welcoming, inclusive and excited about what the future holds, it feels very different to most other European countries in the last few years and makes what happened last week more of a surprise.
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Yep, I'm fully aware of the sensitivity as three of my grandparents were Irish, Only one emigrated for economic reasons - one married a non-Irish woman and the other, Patrick, joined the Army (and actually fought at Gallipoli). Both were effectively forced out of Ireland for their "non-Irish" choices and there were thousands of similar stories.
I've seen some of the books used from the late 1800's right up until the 1930' to "educate" Irish children about the "evil English". Pretty vile stuff way up there with the worst anti-Semitic propaganda of that era - whipped up, as ever, by the religious bigots. The reality of the mid-1800's is far more complex and nuanced than simplistically blaming the brits for genocide.
As Schama puts it, Ireland was Europe's last great Reformation struggle.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in European Politics:
Yep, I'm fully aware of the sensitivity as three of my grandparents were Irish, Only one emigrated for economic reasons - one married a non-Irish woman and the other, Patrick, joined the Army (and actually fought at Gallipoli). Both were effectively forced out of Ireland for their "non-Irish" choices and there were thousands of similar stories.
I've seen some of the books used from the late 1800's right up until the 1930' to "educate" Irish children about the "evil English". Pretty vile stuff way up there with the worst anti-Semitic propaganda of that era - whipped up, as ever, by the religious bigots. The reality of the mid-1800's is far more complex and nuanced than simplistically blaming the brits for genocide.
As Schama puts it, Ireland was Europe's last great Reformation struggle.
I wasn’t really replying to you, more @Antipodean particular post and only then in relating how sensitive of a subject it is for some.
FWIW I do not agree with all of the things @The-Irishman says, nor my perception of his tone. As @Dodge said, it is a hugely complex situation, with a lot of dodgy history on both sides.
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Yeah, realise you weren't replying to me and didn't mean to butt in but your post was interesting and intrigued me - not least the Gallipoli angle which has a personal connection.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in European Politics:
Yeah, realise you weren't replying to me and didn't mean to butt in but your post was interesting and intrigued me - not least the Gallipoli angle which has a personal connection.
The Gallipoli thing was simply about national sensibilities. Always a good idea to tread carefully around such things.
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@Catogrande said in European Politics:
@antipodean said in European Politics:
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits.
It's a strange way to commit genocide by permitting hundreds of thousands to migrate to Liverpool, Bradford, Manchester, etc.
You may not be aware of just how delicate this subject is for many Irish. The only thing I can think if anywhere near this for you guys would be dismissing the sacrifices made at Gallipoli. Not quite the same thing but very close in terms of national emotion.
Having ancestry from Kerry, Longford, Waterford, etc. I'm aware of the deep antipathy many Irish have for the English. Hand in hand with that antipathy in what appears to be an equal measure is ignorance. I don't deny the Irish were poorly treated but my response was to the hyperbole; genocide.
And as it turns out, there's a pervasive myth in Australia about Gallipoli too; blaming the English for the failure when the truth of the matter is the landings could've and should've been a success had the troops pushed forward. They didn't and the Turks were afforded the time to reinforce.
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Apology accepted 😎
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Interesting. European manufacturers coming under increasing pressure as productivity falls and competition bites. Coming under pressure from Chinese (& Korean) competitors in e-cars while having a big export market in China makes EU protectionism pretty much impossible. Rock and hard place.
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@Victor-Meldrew I wonder how much the increasing cost of energy is hurting.