Pumas vs All Blacks



  • @mn5 if you combine a good player with a really good player you might get a really really good player.

    Sometimes I think you may have been the inspiration for Pepper Brooks.

    Good on ya watching the rugga!



  • @kiwipie said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    Is it just me that thought the ref had an OK game? I agreed with most of his decisions .....

    It's the big calls that let him down:

    • Argie infringing on their own line after the Rieko break was as clear cut a professional foul as you'll ever see. Penalty only was crazy.
    • The Argie knocking down the pass to stop another try was the same, which he inexplicably ruled a knock on only.
    • There was also the Argie try from a double movement, though I'd probably want to watch that again.

    By contrast he had no issues going to the pocket for the ABs.

    I think he was influenced by the crowd. Probably not consciously, but he was very reluctant to penalise obvious foul play from the Argies. I also wonder if the way people carry on up North, and the lack of support refs get from the governing body, is making refs reluctant to make big calls against teams playing the ABs.



  • @no-quarter said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    I think he was influenced by the crowd. Probably not consciously, but he was very reluctant to penalise obvious foul play from the Argies.

    TBF I think that is a factor with all refs.



  • @taniwharugby said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    was that one of the best ever performances in Black by Ardie?

    Certainly put his hand up as a genuine back up to Read with that performance, and then there is the fact he was used more in the lineout too, we've known on here for ages he had the required height!

    Ardie was awesome. Luke Whitelock is a very consistent player but I really don't think he has a performance like that in him - Ardie's ceiling is a lot higher (insert tall joke here). I've thought for a while 8 suits him better as the modern day 7 needs more physicality in the tight.

    I think Frizzel was a bit of an unsung hero in the tight. He and Cane made a ton of tackles allowing Ardie to do what Ardie does best.



  • @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @mn5 if you combine a good player with a really good player you might get a really really good player.

    Sometimes I think you may have been the inspiration for Pepper Brooks.

    Good on ya watching the rugga!

    I hosted a fry up and got some other fluffybunny to cook while I drunk morning beer.

    If that's not winning I don't know what is.



  • @no-quarter I think your last sentence is the one there.

    On the "double-movement" - I don't have a problem with that. However, watch it again and there is massive obstruction by (I think) blue 12, who basically shepherds Cubelli all the way to the try line, blocking Perenara.



  • MN5 said:

    @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @mn5 if you combine a good player with a really good player you might get a really really good player.

    Sometimes I think you may have been the inspiration for Pepper Brooks.

    Good on ya watching the rugga!

    I hosted a fry up and got some other fluffybunny to cook while I drunk morning beer.

    If that's not winning I don't know what is.



  • With the 1-3-3-1 pod structure (or any pod structure) being after my playing time, I struggle to pick it out when watching a game.

    What was the structure in this match?

    Right always seems to be Taylor, but the left flank doesn't seem to be a set player every game. In fact not since the days of the regular Read on right flank and Coles on left flank (before Ritchie retired and Read became more central) have I worked out who our non-hooker shirker on the flank is.

    But the main reason I ask is, Ardie carved up metres, Frizzell I doubt had a single run. In Nelson Frizzell was the runner in one of those pods of 3, was he also in that role in this match?

    Although, actually, not that I noticed a single pod put any forward runner through a whole in the whole match.



  • @no-quarter Ardie made 13 tackles, Frizzel 19 and Cane 9.



  • @bovidae said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @nevorian said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    Does anyone know what the total no.of tests combined was for that forward pack once Sam Whitelock was subbed?

    The AB pack that ended the game:

    Tim Perry (3)
    Nathan Harris (16)
    Angus Ta'avao (debut)
    Patrick Tuipulotu (17)
    Scott Barrett (23)
    Jackson Hemopo (1)
    Sam Cane (58)
    Ardie Savea (29)

    C

    @bovidae said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @nevorian said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    Does anyone know what the total no.of tests combined was for that forward pack once Sam Whitelock was subbed?

    The AB pack that ended the game:

    Tim Perry (3)
    Nathan Harris (16)
    Angus Ta'avao (debut)
    Patrick Tuipulotu (17)
    Scott Barrett (23)
    Jackson Hemopo (1)
    Sam Cane (58)
    Ardie Savea (29)

    Bloody hell how quickly has Scott B clocked up 23 caps?



  • Pumas scrum was an embarrassment. It was a bit like watching the Pacific Islands teams scrums at RWCs in the 1990s getting bulldozed.

    Even worse for them is that it was pretty much a second string and then third string AB pack that was doing the bulldozing.

    Could argue our No. 1 pack is Moody, Coles, Franks, Retallick, Whitelock, Squire, Cane, Read.

    Given that Ledesma is supposedly a scrummaging guru who fixed theWallabies, I'm not sure how they find themselves in this hole.

    Big Karl is really the "find" of the year. Hansen had voiced concern about how thin we were at loosehead prop and now his cup seems to be running over, with Moody, Tu'inukuake, Hames and even Perry.

    I guess we've still got to test some of these guys against England and Ireland, but it's looking pretty bright.

    Main gaps that need filling are a third hooker, another wing and perhaps still a better back up at number 8.



  • @toddy said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @no-quarter Ardie made 13 tackles, Frizzel 19 and Cane 9.

    Interesting. Stats often don't mean much but that does indicate they asked Frizzel to play a much tighter "Kaino" style game this time around.



  • @chris-b I think you can consider Taylor part of the No. 1 pack, too. So Taylor/Coles.



  • @stargazer while if/when Coles gets back to fitness he will be back in black and given chances, I think he has been out long enough that Taylor has established himself as #1, and he will need to earn back the #1 spot.



  • @taniwharugby Yes, I think so, too. I'm surprised/disappointed he still hasn't played any game for Wellington in the Mitre 10 Cup.



  • @chris-b said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    Given that Ledesma is supposedly a scrummaging guru who fixed theWallabies, I'm not sure how they find themselves in this hole.

    Ledesma has only been there 5 minutes. He came in after the June tests (replaced Hourcade).

    Ledesma took over the Jaguares this year, then replaced Hourcade as Pumas coach.



  • @nepia said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    Crotty got through 82 minutes of rugby!

    In 2017?



  • @rapido said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    With the 1-3-3-1 pod structure (or any pod structure) being after my playing time, I struggle to pick it out when watching a game.

    What was the structure in this match?

    Right always seems to be Taylor, but the left flank doesn't seem to be a set player every game. In fact not since the days of the regular Read on right flank and Coles on left flank (before Ritchie retired and Read became more central) have I worked out who our non-hooker shirker on the flank is.

    But the main reason I ask is, Ardie carved up metres, Frizzell I doubt had a single run. In Nelson Frizzell was the runner in one of those pods of 3, was he also in that role in this match?

    Although, actually, not that I noticed a single pod put any forward runner through a whole in the whole match.

    Some good explanation of how things are being done now is here



  • It may have been mentioned elsewhere but poor BB must be feeling neglected now that Tony Johnson has stopped fapping over him and has shifted his wristing to Mounga.
    WTF is with this press campaign to try and elevate Mounga above BB anyway? It has been going way beyond the normal 'look at this guy pushing a claim' stuff to implying that the selectors are useless and blind to the talents in front of them. I can hardly open an article without reading some gushing statements



  • My 2cents worth from the game. The ref were pants, all French refs are. BB brought his kicking boots to BA, don't forget it there son. Our scrum was impressive, more of the same...Owen Franks 😜 you need to step up. How good was Ardie ??? This could just be the solution to our no.8 problem. On the downside: I think Codie needs a rest. Handling ERRRROOORRS and poor decision making.😡. But the RC is in the bag, just go and beat the boks.



  • @cantab79 yeah, was just about to mention this. I think the pumas were bing particularly niggly at us for us to react in this way. It is out of character for us to be involved in this. I know teams like to paint the ABs as a dirty, physical side etc etc but that isnt normally the case at all.

    For as long as I can remember the Pumas have been a niggly disruptive side and this would affect the enjoyment of a match.

    Obviously being at home and seeing a young AB pack gave them reason to try to disrupt us by trying it on.



  • @taniwharugby Yeah, I agree with that. Coles will take some time to get back to where he wants to be and after an acl will find his pace wont be the same.

    I think Taylor will be starting and Coles from the bench will be the order of things unless Coles kills it straight away but will need time to fimnd his feet again



  • @taniwharugby said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    was that one of the best ever performances in Black by Ardie?

    Certainly put his hand up as a genuine back up to Read with that performance, and then there is the fact he was used more in the lineout too, we've known on here for ages he had the required height!

    I think the other pleasing thing , he was very good at 7 in the loss against the Boks as well ,

    Thats two good games in a row, one at 8 , one at 7 ,

    His value on the bench as a utility is starting to look a lot better all of a sudden



  • @kiwiinmelb said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @taniwharugby said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    was that one of the best ever performances in Black by Ardie?

    Certainly put his hand up as a genuine back up to Read with that performance, and then there is the fact he was used more in the lineout too, we've known on here for ages he had the required height!

    I think the other pleasing thing , he was very good at 7 in the loss against the Boks as well ,

    Thats two good games in a row, one at 8 , one at 7 ,

    His value on the bench as a utility is starting to look a lot better all of a sudden

    At this rate he'll get a run at 9 next. Would need a no. 1 to meet height requirement?!



  • @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @kiwipie thought he started off OK, but then he goes on to look for any reason to ignore Argie offending, whilst looking for any reason to card NZ. How on earth there was no Argie carded is beyond me. He warned NZ after like one offence! Then Argies don't even get penalised for intentional knock ons and are allowed to infringe at the dreakdown on their own line, preventing a try. As I'm saying, when the incompetency is on display like that, it really looks like bias...

    I actually thought the card for the ABs was fair - they do have an unfortunate habit once the ref has given the attacking side an advantage of doing multiple infringements to prevent a try being scored. Once that happens, the ref pretty much has to get a card out.

    Definite yellow at the ruck following the Ioane break, but often not given for some reason.

    I do suspect that a ref is more likely to card a team with a lead defending their line than a team that is already a few points behind.

    I think I have low expectations of refs sometimes - when the incidents happened that were accidental but the crowd were screaming (Ioane try 2 and Naholo knee), a weaker ref could have made the crowd happy.



  • @mg said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    On the downside: I think Codie needs a rest.

    Taylor has had a huge season. He played some huge minutes for the Crusaders, with Moody, Franks and then Funnell injured and now has played huge minutes for the ABs without Coles and with Harris and Coltman being suspect alternatives.



  • @pakman said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @kiwiinmelb said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @taniwharugby said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    was that one of the best ever performances in Black by Ardie?

    Certainly put his hand up as a genuine back up to Read with that performance, and then there is the fact he was used more in the lineout too, we've known on here for ages he had the required height!

    I think the other pleasing thing , he was very good at 7 in the loss against the Boks as well ,

    Thats two good games in a row, one at 8 , one at 7 ,

    His value on the bench as a utility is starting to look a lot better all of a sudden

    At this rate he'll get a run at 9 next. Would need a no. 1 to meet height requirement?!

    That Welsh bloke who went out with that hot Welsh chick who sung shit music completely ruined the height ratio for halfbacks.

    Not Gavin Henson, Mike Phillips.



  • @mn5 by being 5cm taller than Cowan?



  • @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @mn5 by being 5cm taller than Cowan?

    He's taller than Ardie, yes apparently that is possible.



  • @kiwipie said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @kiwipie thought he started off OK, but then he goes on to look for any reason to ignore Argie offending, whilst looking for any reason to card NZ. How on earth there was no Argie carded is beyond me. He warned NZ after like one offence! Then Argies don't even get penalised for intentional knock ons and are allowed to infringe at the dreakdown on their own line, preventing a try. As I'm saying, when the incompetency is on display like that, it really looks like bias...

    I actually thought the card for the ABs was fair - they do have an unfortunate habit once the ref has given the attacking side an advantage of doing multiple infringements to prevent a try being scored. Once that happens, the ref pretty much has to get a card out.

    Sure it's fair, if you're going to apply the same thought process to the other team also. I definitely don't see the ABs as having a habit of this.

    Definite yellow at the ruck following the Ioane break, but often not given for some reason.

    Often not given? Not my impression.

    I do suspect that a ref is more likely to card a team with a lead defending their line than a team that is already a few points behind.

    Again, I don't know how you get that impression but it's not a suspicion of mine.

    I think I have low expectations of refs sometimes - when the incidents happened that were accidental but the crowd were screaming (Ioane try 2 and Naholo knee), a weaker ref could have made the crowd happy.

    Oh he definitely could have, but those were calls he went upstairs for, so he had no excuse if he made the wrong decision and would have been well and truly shifted on to refereeing kids for the rest of the year. The shit calls he did make are ones he can easily squirm out of.



  • @crucial said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    It may have been mentioned elsewhere but poor BB must be feeling neglected now that Tony Johnson has stopped fapping over him and has shifted his wristing to Mounga.

    You'll have to forgive TJ as he's lost when his boyfriend isn't playing. That's always Kieran Read in the commentary, not Read.



  • @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    Sure it's fair, if you're going to apply the same thought process to the other team also. I definitely don't see the ABs as having a habit of this.

    It is a desperation to defend their line against teams that are already too far behind to kick penalties. Teams who don't concede a try have to wait for a mistake or it ends in a yellow card. Suspect the ABs have done the maths and would rather concede a yellow than a try.



  • @kiwipie so he was right to card black and not blue?



  • @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @kiwipie so he was right to card black and not blue?

    No as I already stated, in my opinion both should have been carded. There is no right and wrong, only opinions



  • @kiwipie said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @kiwipie so he was right to card black and not blue?

    No as I already stated, in my opinion both should have been carded. There is no right and wrong, only opinions

    Fark, you sound like Yoda



  • @nzzp said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    Fark, you sound like Yoda

    not to mention that guy in the middle with the whistle, his opinion is the only one that matters (inc the guy in the TMO box...)



  • @kiwipie said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    @bones said in Pumas vs All Blacks:

    Sure it's fair, if you're going to apply the same thought process to the other team also. I definitely don't see the ABs as having a habit of this.

    It is a desperation to defend their line against teams that are already too far behind to kick penalties. Teams who don't concede a try have to wait for a mistake or it ends in a yellow card. Suspect the ABs have done the maths and would rather concede a yellow than a try.

    As Boks against Oz.


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