All Blacks 2025
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It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
i find NZ rugby to be hyper insular and conservative.
We're overly focused on reducing risk over exploiting opportunity (see nearly every player chat being focused on errors rather than anything else), and we select everywhere as cover for disaster rather than a chance to add a positive.
Sorry to butt into this great conversation here but as a non Kiwi I can appreciate exactly what you are saying. As an outsider looking in it seems like fear of failure has such a paralyzing impact on NZ rugby.
Like, if SR form this season translated to test rugby this could be a great season for the All Blacks but there seems to be a pervasive pessimism that is a dark cloud which hangs over things.
In many ways it feels like overthinking.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
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@mariner4life hoping for some squad selections that go against the grain think Leroy Carter, Tavatavanawai and Kirifi, knock against them maybe too short for international rugby but I just don't think Havili's and Blackadders would be of much concern to the Boks or France
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Both Sititi and Savea have been used as a lineout target with success, but I wouldn't want three short loose forwards either. The key for the loose forward trio, as always, will be balance. That third loose forward needs to be someone who hits rucks and cleans because that isn't the strength of either Savea or Sititi. Otherwise, we are expecting a lot from the locks and props to do just that.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
a lot or people picking a lot of absolute midget loose forward squads.
Based on last year, the selectors didn't seem to think size was absolutely crucial.
Ardie was a fixture at 8 and then they largely picked big sevens and small sixes - almost more left and right flankers than traditional openside/blindside. Finau the obvious exception.
As I recall, Razor even pretty much said at one point that they see loose forwards as pretty much interchangeable.
This might have been making a virtue out of a necessity.
But, it's what makes picking the loose forwards very murky - because we don't really know how Razor plans to deploy them. Will Ardie be 7 or 8? Will Sititi be 6 or 8?
The Super coaches have got into this spirit by picking lots of the contenders in positions different to where they're likely to play for the ABs - or at least where they mainly played last year.
Size becomes less of an issue with the go forward that Savea and Sititi provide.
Contrast that to Blackadder, Papalii and Jacobsen who have the same impact as a fly on a windshield in comparison.
Except... it was an issue last year, with Savea and Sititi playing most matches - and Blackadder and Papalii playing fuck-all.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
a lot or people picking a lot of absolute midget loose forward squads.
Based on last year, the selectors didn't seem to think size was absolutely crucial.
Ardie was a fixture at 8 and then they largely picked big sevens and small sixes - almost more left and right flankers than traditional openside/blindside. Finau the obvious exception.
As I recall, Razor even pretty much said at one point that they see loose forwards as pretty much interchangeable.
This might have been making a virtue out of a necessity.
But, it's what makes picking the loose forwards very murky - because we don't really know how Razor plans to deploy them. Will Ardie be 7 or 8? Will Sititi be 6 or 8?
The Super coaches have got into this spirit by picking lots of the contenders in positions different to where they're likely to play for the ABs - or at least where they mainly played last year.
Size becomes less of an issue with the go forward that Savea and Sititi provide.
Contrast that to Blackadder, Papalii and Jacobsen who have the same impact as a fly on a windshield in comparison.
Except... it was an issue last year, with Savea and Sititi playing most matches - and Blackadder and Papalii playing fuck-all.
I said "less"......whichever trio they select will have deficiencies of some sort.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Devan Flanders could be in the conversation by the end of Super. Hopefully he comes back from his long-term injury with the same form he showed in 2024. He's the reason Howden went down to the Landers, he has the size for a test 6, and has the mobility, skillset and speed required at the next level. Would like to see more physicality in his game though, hopefully he can show that when he comes back.
He's having a decent shot at the Blackadder route to AB selection. But, he may lack a red stripe on his jersey for to be completely successful.
I feel like he ticks all the boxes but obviously needs to get back on the park. The only real concern I have is his physical presence on defence but I feel like he wasn't far off last year. Notably that game against the Drua in Fiji last year he really stood out as the dominant Canes loosie that day. Just needs to consistently dominate, he's definitely at peak age now so hopefully he can come back strong.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
Both Sititi and Savea have been used as a lineout target with success, but I wouldn't want three short loose forwards either. The key for the loose forward trio, as always, will be balance. That third loose forward needs to be someone who hits rucks and cleans because that isn't the strength of either Savea or Sititi. Otherwise, we are expecting a lot from the locks and props to do just that.
Interestingly, Joe Schmidt was on The Breakdown this week and said Ardie is a better lineout target than you'd expect for a man of his height, because he's such a dynamic jumper.
They had Schmidt and Andrew Goodman on mainly talking about the Lions tour, but Schmidt also talked a bit about Super rugby and NZ players. A better than usual episode.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
No point picking someone just because they are big though. Samipeni hasn't exactly nailed down the blindside jersey for the Chiefs, and there is no point discussing Sotutu.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Ah Kuoi has a good workrate and size for a 6.
This could be his best position at int. level.
is he quick enough?Can't see him being any slower than Kaino, Grace, Blackadder, Finau, etc. Plus Vaai, Savea, Sititi are no slouches.
Kaino was in 100m final at St. Kent’s, but had to yield to Joe Rocks.
That Kaino made a couple of appearances (if that?) and was swiftly dropped.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
Both Sititi and Savea have been used as a lineout target with success, but I wouldn't want three short loose forwards either. The key for the loose forward trio, as always, will be balance. That third loose forward needs to be someone who hits rucks and cleans because that isn't the strength of either Savea or Sititi. Otherwise, we are expecting a lot from the locks and props to do just that.
Interestingly, Joe Schmidt was on The Breakdown this week and said Ardie is a better lineout target than you'd expect for a man of his height, because he's such a dynamic jumper.
They had Schmidt and Andrew Goodman on mainly talking about the Lions tour, but Schmidt also talked a bit about Super rugby and NZ players. A better than usual episode.
A strong vertical leap is less relevant with lifting though isn't it ?
With Ardies leg drive it doesn't surprise me in the slightest he is spring heeled though.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
Definitely. I remember reading that Michael Jones and Jonah were also huge leapers ( again, not surprising )
But yeah, as @Bones says it risks negating all his other talents.
It's not like Australia ever got Izzy Folau to jump in a lineout.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
Yeah Savea is a v good lineout target, but it would be foolish to use him there when his best work is on the ground.
That's why I'm liking your thinking on Ah Koui, great line-out option as a 6, hits hard and seems like a guy that loves the niggle. Would certainly allow Savea and Sititi to play more of their natural games. Someone tell Clayton to give him a shot there this week against Moana.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
Lifters have to get in position too though, and they are invariably the bottleneck.
It's a minor help, in that the lifting job is easier if you have good upward momentum. -
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
Definitely. I remember reading that Michael Jones and Jonah were also huge leapers ( again, not surprising )
But yeah, as @Bones says it risks negating all his other talents.
It's not like Australia ever got Izzy Folau to jump in a lineout.
Probably only use him a couple of times a game though, so I wouldn't be too worried about that.
First job is to secure the ball and it helps to have some good options.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
No point picking someone just because they are big though. Samipeni hasn't exactly nailed down the blindside jersey for the Chiefs, and there is no point discussing Sotutu.
Well I'm not prescribing names with my point. Substitute Parker for Finau if you want, the point remains that a Test backrow requires big munters who can take lineouts.
Finau is a very good lineout loose forward.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
No point picking someone just because they are big though. Samipeni hasn't exactly nailed down the blindside jersey for the Chiefs, and there is no point discussing Sotutu.
I wouldn't get hung up if your are on bench or starting for the chiefs , Mcmillian has used more rotation than other teams plus looking at who can lift the team off the bench.
