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non offensive post stating the fact about immigrant bans by past presidents:
not very offensive opinion: Democrats (be they politicians or media) are responsible for the scary deterioration in American political discourse. When you want to know what evil they are involved in or plotting, listen to their lies. Russia...Fake news...Obama issued 6 immigrant bans......
White House documents also show that former President Bill Clinton issued six immigrant bans; George W. Bush six immigrant bans; and former President Ronald Reagan four. And in 1980, former President Jimmy Carter banned Iranians after Tehran seized the U.S. embassy.
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Again, her job is to ensure laws passed stand up in court. The day after this ban went out 4 federal judges at least partially revoked it.
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@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
Again I'm not endorsing the source and feel a bit dirty linking to it, but I think this article helps explain some of what went down this year.
Yep, 100%
There's a chunk of America - and very much the wider world, that don't see "tranny bathrooms" or civil liberties for blacks or gays or women as an expansion of those peoples rights up towards the levels of rights already afforded to the average white man, they see it as a destruction of the rights of the average white man.
So you get people who have never met a gay person outraged at the attack on their rights presented by gay marriage or seeing accepting trannies exist as an attempt to set a tranny loose on their kids. They feel they've already lost so much that anything anyone else is getting must come from them, even when its a rights issue, not a job or a house.
Yes they see it as a destruction of the rights of the average white man. Heysus Christus.
That wasn't the point made in the article. The point was that people have far more important things to worry about than trannie rights in toilets and gay marriage. They wish that these were the most important concerns in their lives.
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Yeah, they see it as zero sum, if congress or the president is giving rights to blacks, gays, women etc that must mean they are not trying to get the economy going again. Every smiling happy homo couple must represent a white guy with no job.
That idea that progess can be made on multiple fronts is gone. The Trump vote were very much zero-sum, its me or them, if someone not like me is doing well, it is at my expense.
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non offensive post with humor (check if you are a real person. If you don't laugh, you're not real...):
Democrats still looking for real people
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/democrats-real-people-lessons-234198 -
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I apologize for the source, and the writer himself is also somewhat "special" but I think the content of the article is worthy of discussion regarding populism and how that's linked to the Trump phenomenon, Brexit etc.
I liked this quote:
"Listen here, all ye smacked, condescending asses, all you powderpuff socialist theorists who’ve never had to work an honest, sweaty day in your lives—one of the things I’m always ready to bang fists over is the accusation that I don’t know what it’s like to be working-class. On my way back from the inauguration, I stopped to take a picture in front of the house I grew up in outside Philly. The people in this neighborhood don’t give a soaring fuck about your tranny bathrooms and your crocodile tears for Muslim refugees and illegal immigrants, nor do they want to hear a single word about how uber-wealthy parlor pinks at The Nation understand what’s in their best interests—they just want to work an honest job, take care of their kids, and eat a couple Italian hoagies while watching yet another Super Bowl where the Eagles won’t be playing."
Again I'm not endorsing the source and feel a bit dirty linking to it, but I think this article helps explain some of what went down this year.
Can't deny this isn't a real thing or that the tapping in to this demographic is probably the key to a lot of what is happening around the world at the moment.
I disagree with holding this group up as some kind of paragon (if that was the intention of the writer) and ridiculing other groups.
This group are hardly the ones you turn to to advance a society. Maybe they don't make mistakes when they make change but that's more because they don't participate in change rather than being mistake free. -
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
Again I'm not endorsing the source and feel a bit dirty linking to it, but I think this article helps explain some of what went down this year.
Yep, 100%
There's a chunk of America - and very much the wider world, that don't see "tranny bathrooms" or civil liberties for blacks or gays or women as an expansion of those peoples rights up towards the levels of rights already afforded to the average white man, they see it as a destruction of the rights of the average white man.
So you get people who have never met a gay person outraged at the attack on their rights presented by gay marriage or seeing accepting trannies exist as an attempt to set a tranny loose on their kids. They feel they've already lost so much that anything anyone else is getting must come from them, even when its a rights issue, not a job or a house.
Yes they see it as a destruction of the rights of the average white man. Heysus Christus.
That wasn't the point made in the article. The point was that people have far more important things to worry about than trannie rights in toilets and gay marriage. They wish that these were the most important concerns in their lives.
A great example of how different people can read the same thing and have a completely different take on its meaning.
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@gollum said in US Politics:
Yeah, they see it as zero sum, if congress or the president is giving rights to blacks, gays, women etc that must mean they are not trying to get the economy going again. Every smiling happy homo couple must represent a white guy with no job.
That idea that progess can be made on multiple fronts is gone. The Trump vote were very much zero-sum, its me or them, if someone not like me is doing well, it is at my expense.
Since we're all being civil I'll just let that enormous generalisation go through to the keeper.
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
Again I'm not endorsing the source and feel a bit dirty linking to it, but I think this article helps explain some of what went down this year.
Yep, 100%
There's a chunk of America - and very much the wider world, that don't see "tranny bathrooms" or civil liberties for blacks or gays or women as an expansion of those peoples rights up towards the levels of rights already afforded to the average white man, they see it as a destruction of the rights of the average white man.
So you get people who have never met a gay person outraged at the attack on their rights presented by gay marriage or seeing accepting trannies exist as an attempt to set a tranny loose on their kids. They feel they've already lost so much that anything anyone else is getting must come from them, even when its a rights issue, not a job or a house.
Yes they see it as a destruction of the rights of the average white man. Heysus Christus.
That wasn't the point made in the article. The point was that people have far more important things to worry about than trannie rights in toilets and gay marriage. They wish that these were the most important concerns in their lives.
A great example of how different people can read the same thing and have a completely different take on its meaning.
So you think the author was saying that white people are threatened by civil liberties for blacks or gays or women? Seriously?
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@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
Again I'm not endorsing the source and feel a bit dirty linking to it, but I think this article helps explain some of what went down this year.
Yep, 100%
There's a chunk of America - and very much the wider world, that don't see "tranny bathrooms" or civil liberties for blacks or gays or women as an expansion of those peoples rights up towards the levels of rights already afforded to the average white man, they see it as a destruction of the rights of the average white man.
So you get people who have never met a gay person outraged at the attack on their rights presented by gay marriage or seeing accepting trannies exist as an attempt to set a tranny loose on their kids. They feel they've already lost so much that anything anyone else is getting must come from them, even when its a rights issue, not a job or a house.
I'm not sure it's quite that way, I think it's more about the perception that when such issues are being focused on, other issues - which are more important to them - are not. I think there is a huge amount to learn from Trump supporters (as opposed to him) about the way that identify politics has shaped discourse and has led to them feeling alienated. To be fair, many people have been screwed by globalization, and the link from RS was quite telling for me, because the author basically admitted that he doesn't care that trump isn't a 'representative' of him in any sense, but rather that he speaks to that audience in a way that resonates with them. If Trump does what he says he will, he can keep that voting block - even if the results hurt them - is my bet.
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I apologize for the source, and the writer himself is also somewhat "special" but I think the content of the article is worthy of discussion regarding populism and how that's linked to the Trump phenomenon, Brexit etc.
I liked this quote:
"Listen here, all ye smacked, condescending asses, all you powderpuff socialist theorists who’ve never had to work an honest, sweaty day in your lives—one of the things I’m always ready to bang fists over is the accusation that I don’t know what it’s like to be working-class. On my way back from the inauguration, I stopped to take a picture in front of the house I grew up in outside Philly. The people in this neighborhood don’t give a soaring fuck about your tranny bathrooms and your crocodile tears for Muslim refugees and illegal immigrants, nor do they want to hear a single word about how uber-wealthy parlor pinks at The Nation understand what’s in their best interests—they just want to work an honest job, take care of their kids, and eat a couple Italian hoagies while watching yet another Super Bowl where the Eagles won’t be playing."
Again I'm not endorsing the source and feel a bit dirty linking to it, but I think this article helps explain some of what went down this year.
Can't deny this isn't a real thing or that the tapping in to this demographic is probably the key to a lot of what is happening around the world at the moment.
I disagree with holding this group up as some kind of paragon (if that was the intention of the writer) and ridiculing other groups.
This group are hardly the ones you turn to to advance a society. Maybe they don't make mistakes when they make change but that's more because they don't participate in change rather than being mistake free.You just don't get it do you? It's not about claiming superiority or wanting to rule. It's about being shown some respect and being given a voice. Continuing to write them off as clueless, stupid, racist Neanderthals isn't going to unite society going forward.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
.So you think the author was saying that white people are threatened by civil liberties for blacks or gays or women? Seriously?
I don't neccesariuly think they are threatened (tho' a large fringe most definately are), its the zero-sum thing. The idea that anything good happening in society at the same time as something bad happening to me, must be at my expense. That idea that the president by making certain groups happy has skipped over his real job - making me happy. Like he cant do both.
A huge chunk of the poor white vote for Trump was built on the idea they had been ignored (at the expense of gays, trannies, mexicans, refugees, women). And to a large degree they had, but there was zero corelation between gay rights or womens healthcare and coal mining jobs disappearing.
As Tim notes it often is zero-sum - eg in terms of immigrantion definately, but its now being thought of as zero sum on everything - so civil rights for gays or women cause a loss in coal mining jobs.
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@gollum said in US Politics:
"Yeah, they see it as zero sum, if congress or the president is giving rights to blacks, gays, women etc that must mean they are not trying to get the economy going again. Every smiling happy homo couple must represent a white guy with no job. That idea that progess can be made on multiple fronts is gone. The Trump vote were very much zero-sum, its me or them, if someone not like me is doing well, it is at my expense.""Yeah, they see it as zero sum, if Congress or the President is focusing on the economy that must mean they are not going to respect the rights of blacks, gays or women (or unborn children). Every smiling happy white male must represent a woman, African American or homosexual whose rights are not being advanced. That idea that progess can be made on multiple fronts is gone. The Clinton/Obama support vote was very much zero-sum, its us downtrodden by society victims or white males, if someone not like me is doing well, it is at my expense."
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@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
.So you think the author was saying that white people are threatened by civil liberties for blacks or gays or women? Seriously?
I don't neccesariuly think they are threatened (tho' a large fringe most definately are), its the zero-sum thing. The idea that anything good happening in society at the same time as something bad happening to me, must be at my expense. That idea that the president by making certain groups happy has skipped over his real job - making me happy. Like he cant do both.
A huge chunk of the poor white vote for Trump was built on the idea they had been ignored (at the expense of gays, trannies, mexicans, refugees, women). And to a large degree they had, but there was zero corelation between gay rights or womens healthcare and coal mining jobs disappearing.
As Tim notes it often is zero-sum - eg in terms of immigrantion definately, but its now being thought of as zero sum on everything - so civil rights for gays or women cause a loss in coal mining jobs.
You just said they see it as the destruction of the rights of the average white man. What are these civil rights for women you keep mentioning?
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I apologize for the source, and the writer himself is also somewhat "special" but I think the content of the article is worthy of discussion regarding populism and how that's linked to the Trump phenomenon, Brexit etc.
I liked this quote:
"Listen here, all ye smacked, condescending asses, all you powderpuff socialist theorists who’ve never had to work an honest, sweaty day in your lives—one of the things I’m always ready to bang fists over is the accusation that I don’t know what it’s like to be working-class. On my way back from the inauguration, I stopped to take a picture in front of the house I grew up in outside Philly. The people in this neighborhood don’t give a soaring fuck about your tranny bathrooms and your crocodile tears for Muslim refugees and illegal immigrants, nor do they want to hear a single word about how uber-wealthy parlor pinks at The Nation understand what’s in their best interests—they just want to work an honest job, take care of their kids, and eat a couple Italian hoagies while watching yet another Super Bowl where the Eagles won’t be playing."
Again I'm not endorsing the source and feel a bit dirty linking to it, but I think this article helps explain some of what went down this year.
Can't deny this isn't a real thing or that the tapping in to this demographic is probably the key to a lot of what is happening around the world at the moment.
I disagree with holding this group up as some kind of paragon (if that was the intention of the writer) and ridiculing other groups.
This group are hardly the ones you turn to to advance a society. Maybe they don't make mistakes when they make change but that's more because they don't participate in change rather than being mistake free.I reckon that these people feel cheated - and I think they were the ones who were looked towards to be the building blocks of society - good honest people living simple lives. The basic social contact once was work hard, don't commit crimes (and don't protest in the streets), buy a house, have kids, and life will work out OK. But their life is getting shitter and shitter and they didn't perceive anyone as trying to do anything about it.
Having said that, I'm not sure that trump's policies are going to be successful (although we'll see), but they are simple and easy to understand. Very much 'if I were President, I'd...' and I think that resonates as well with some voters.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
You just said they see it as the destruction of the rights of the average white man. What are these civil rights for women you keep mentioning?
Yep, 100% marriage is between a man & a woman, if its now between 2 gays that diminishes my marriage - and my rights. Repeat for almost everything. You saw exactly the same thing with women voting, blacks rights in the 60's & so on. A core of white men never see this as an expansion of rights to bring people UP, they see it as eroding their rights to give to others.
As I said, re immigration it really is zero sum, but on civil liberties its not, you can give the right to marry to a group & it doesn't deduct that right from some other group who already had it.
As for women, right to basic heathcare is a huge one, the battle over planned parenthood has been sureal, in many places PP is the only way women get smear tests for example. Defunding PP doesn't stop abortion, it stops access to basic healthcare for a huge number of women. Toss in equal pay (which may well be zero sum), maternity pay etc. Hell, in the UK there has been debate for ages re VAT on tampons, they were taxed as "luxury" items until a couple of years ago.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
I apologize for the source, and the writer himself is also somewhat "special" but I think the content of the article is worthy of discussion regarding populism and how that's linked to the Trump phenomenon, Brexit etc.
I liked this quote:
"Listen here, all ye smacked, condescending asses, all you powderpuff socialist theorists who’ve never had to work an honest, sweaty day in your lives—one of the things I’m always ready to bang fists over is the accusation that I don’t know what it’s like to be working-class. On my way back from the inauguration, I stopped to take a picture in front of the house I grew up in outside Philly. The people in this neighborhood don’t give a soaring fuck about your tranny bathrooms and your crocodile tears for Muslim refugees and illegal immigrants, nor do they want to hear a single word about how uber-wealthy parlor pinks at The Nation understand what’s in their best interests—they just want to work an honest job, take care of their kids, and eat a couple Italian hoagies while watching yet another Super Bowl where the Eagles won’t be playing."
Again I'm not endorsing the source and feel a bit dirty linking to it, but I think this article helps explain some of what went down this year.
Can't deny this isn't a real thing or that the tapping in to this demographic is probably the key to a lot of what is happening around the world at the moment.
I disagree with holding this group up as some kind of paragon (if that was the intention of the writer) and ridiculing other groups.
This group are hardly the ones you turn to to advance a society. Maybe they don't make mistakes when they make change but that's more because they don't participate in change rather than being mistake free.You just don't get it do you? It's not about claiming superiority or wanting to rule. It's about being shown some respect and being given a voice. Continuing to write them off as clueless, stupid, racist Neanderthals isn't going to unite society going forward.
When the writer demeans one group and holds up the other then that isn't going to work either (which was my point)
I totally agree that finding the right balance of society to look after all law abiding groups is the way to. It's something I often bring up when the general tone here (just like that writer) is to shout down and ridicule 'social theorists'.
Isolating a group like this simply provides a breeding ground for the power hungry to exploit whether they be someone like Trump or Le Pen or an extreme left. -
@gollum said in US Politics:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in US Politics:
You just said they see it as the destruction of the rights of the average white man. What are these civil rights for women you keep mentioning?
Yep, 100% marriage is between a man & a woman, if its now between 2 gays that diminishes my marriage - and my rights. Repeat for almost everything. You saw exactly the same thing with women voting, blacks rights in the 60's & so on. A core of white men never see this as an expansion of rights to bring people UP, they see it as eroding their rights to give to others.
As I said, re immigration it really is zero sum, but on civil liberties its not, you can give the right to marry to a group & it doesn't deduct that right from some other group who already had it.
As for women, right to basic heathcare is a huge one, the battle over planned parenthood has been sureal, in many places PP is the only way women get smear tests for example. Defunding PP doesn't stop abortion, it stops access to basic healthcare for a huge number of women. Toss in equal pay (which may well be zero sum), maternity pay etc. Hell, in the UK there has been debate for ages re VAT on tampons, they were taxed as "luxury" items until a couple of years ago.
If that's a core, it's a pretty farking tiny core these days. To claim that the people the author writes about are, in 2016, against women voting, black rights and are raving homophobes, is a pretty farking big stretch. The point is they really don't give a shit, because they have more important things to worry about, i.e. paying the rent, feeding their families. It's not a case of "those farking homes/blacks/bitches are destroying my rights" but more "what about me".
You also write about women as though they are some kind of beaten down minority group. Didn't a majority of white women vote for the pussy grabber?
US Politics