Foe Cross Fit Fans
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[quote name='Red Beard' timestamp='1359807108' post='341173']<br />
I know you're right into crossfit but I don't see how kipping can be described as a functional movement. IMO it's just a means to be able to perform a greater amount of reps.<br />
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Of course there is no way you could do 100 strict pull-ups and 30 muscle ups in a workout for time. That's exactly my point.<br />
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The triple extension of a clean or lifting something heavy overhead replicates a common functional movement. What functional movement does kipping replicate?<br />
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I know it's extremelt difficult and acrobatic but when do you use it in everyday life?<br />
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This is my take on it. Kipping is a more efficient way to "get work done", yes it's easier (it's supposed to be). It's functional aspect can be best be described by asking how you would climb over a wall? Would you stop and strictly pull yourself over it to maintain perfect form, or would you use momentum to make it easier?<br />
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And yes I'd rarely have to climb over a wall, but I'd also rarely have to lift 100kg over my head. CrossFit is trying to make you ready to be able to various movements in real life if you need to. Me? I'm doing it keep in shape, but it's nice to know that I was hanging off a roof I could get myself back up (another functional movement analogy).<br />
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By the way, there are several Crossfit workouts that utilise strict pullups (and the other exercises that often use kipping), even weighted pullups. It depends on what the workout is designed to achieve, some days it's all about strength.<br />
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Also, Crossfit didn't invent kipping, it comes from gymnastics - the ultimate sport in moving the body efficiently. -
It's funny all the pros and cons of Crossfit. There are things in it I reckon I'd be pretty good at, other things less so. For some reason I've always been good at clap push ups, I remember some huge young fella collecting for breast cancer who could bench 200kg ( so he claimed and looking at him I believed him ) getting through 20 or so which I matched after giving him 20$ despite not benching anywhere near that ( although I was considerably lighter too to be fair )<br />
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Lots of schools of thought I guess, when I'm pissing round up country and lifting heavy stones to chuck around in a vain attempt to impress my sons I don't focus on form, more getting the fucken heavy things over my head anyway I can. When Johnnie Beattie bumped off the English lock en route to a glorious storming run in the wee small hours he focussed on momentum and power, not strict movement. -
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359849626' post='341337']<br />
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This is my take on it. Kipping is a more efficient way to "get work done", yes it's easier (it's supposed to be). It's functional aspect can be best be described by asking how you would climb over a wall? Would you stop and strictly pull yourself over it to maintain perfect form, or would you use momentum to make it easier?<br />
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And yes I'd rarely have to climb over a wall, but I'd also rarely have to lift 100kg over my head. CrossFit is trying to make you ready to be able to various movements in real life if you need to. Me? I'm doing it keep in shape, but it's nice to know that I was hanging off a roof I could get myself back up (another functional movement analogy).<br />
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By the way, there are several Crossfit workouts that utilise strict pullups (and the other exercises that often use kipping), even weighted pullups. It depends on what the workout is designed to achieve, some days it's all about strength.<br />
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Also, Crossfit didn't invent kipping, it comes from gymnastics - the ultimate sport in moving the body efficiently.<br />
[/quote]<br />
Good take mate, you've swayed my stance somewhat!<br />
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Ive just finished a robust conversation with Kiwi Linc over coffee about why the pair of us (broken arse former rugby players) continue to train. <br />
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Basically we agreeed on two motivations:<br />
<br />- So neither of us get so fat that we have to be cut out of our houses live on Jerry Springer oneday.<br />
<br /> - So in an emergency or crisis situation we can do whatever it takes to ensure the safety of our families. I don't want to be the father who couldn't lift the log off our car or the one who couldn't run to the farm house in enough time to call the ambulance! That's all the motivation we need.<br />
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Neither of us are bothered in any way shape or form about cosmetic appearance anymore.<br />
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So on that basis if kipping enables someone to maximise their training then I guess I'm for it! Still think it looks weird though.
- So neither of us get so fat that we have to be cut out of our houses live on Jerry Springer oneday.<br />
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[quote name='Duluth' timestamp='1359856031' post='341352']<br />
It should be called a 'chin to bar' because it's not a pull up<br />
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There's no point discussing kipping with a crossfitter. It's like trying to tell a scientologist that Tom Cruise can't levitate.<br />
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Which one is a chin and which is a pull-up? I'm continually confused. -
[quote name='Red Beard' timestamp='1359855853' post='341351']<br />
Good take mate, you've swayed my stance somewhat!<br />
<br />
Ive just finished a robust conversation with Kiwi Linc over coffee about why the pair of us (broken arse former rugby players) continue to train.<br />
<br />
Basically we agreeed on two motivations:<br />
<br />- So neither of us get so fat that we have to be cut out of our houses live on Jerry Springer oneday.<br />
<br /> - So in an emergency or crisis situation we can do whatever it takes to ensure the safety of our families. I don't want to be the father who couldn't lift the log off our car or the one who couldn't run to the farm house in enough time to call the ambulance! That's all the motivation we need.<br />
<br />
Neither of us are bothered in any way shape or form about cosmetic appearance anymore.<br />
<br />
So on that basis if kipping enables someone to maximise their training then I guess I'm for it! Still think it looks weird though.<br />
[/quote]<br />
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Agree totally with that but add 3. to impress people who don't train, 4. keep the big gut skinny arm syndrome at bay which I bordered on whilst living in London ( so cosmetic to some extent )
- So neither of us get so fat that we have to be cut out of our houses live on Jerry Springer oneday.<br />
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[quote name='Duluth' timestamp='1359856031' post='341352']<br />
It should be called a 'chin to bar' because it's not a pull up<br />
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There's no point discussing kipping with a crossfitter. It's like trying to tell a scientologist that Tom Cruise can't levitate.<br />
[/quote]<br />
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"Chin over bar" would be a better label (you cheeky shit).<br />
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We actually do that sort of description for things like Clean and Jerk, sometimes called Ground to Overhead, because they don't care what technique you use as long as you getting the weight from the floor to a pressed out position above your head (safely of course). Up until this week for the Grace workout I was cleaning and push pressing because I had trouble dipping again quickly for the jerk after the clean.<br />
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It's also worth pointing out that if a WOD has pullups written in it (and are not specified in a certain style, eg strict), you can choose how to do them for yourself; strict, kipping, chipups, mixed grip, whatever. So you can tailor the workout to achieve whatever you are after. -
[quote name='Red Beard' timestamp='1359855853' post='341351']<br />
Good take mate, you've swayed my stance somewhat!<br />
<br />
Ive just finished a robust conversation with Kiwi Linc over coffee about why the pair of us (broken arse former rugby players) continue to train.<br />
<br />
Basically we agreeed on two motivations:<br />
<br />- So neither of us get so fat that we have to be cut out of our houses live on Jerry Springer oneday.<br />
<br /> - So in an emergency or crisis situation we can do whatever it takes to ensure the safety of our families. I don't want to be the father who couldn't lift the log off our car or the one who couldn't run to the farm house in enough time to call the ambulance! That's all the motivation we need.<br />
<br />
Neither of us are bothered in any way shape or form about cosmetic appearance anymore.<br />
<br />
So on that basis if kipping enables someone to maximise their training then I guess I'm for it! Still think it looks weird though.<br />
[/quote]<br />
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Yep, for me it was not being out of breath putting the damn rubbish out. And secondly, being fit enough to work, manage the house and play with the kids without being exhausted.<br />
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The rest is like discussing the benefits of League vs Rugby, or Catholicism vs Protestantism. It's semantics, and from the outside people can't tell the difference anyway. It's just fun lifting heavy things at the end of the day, wish I started in my 20s.
- So neither of us get so fat that we have to be cut out of our houses live on Jerry Springer oneday.<br />
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[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359859727' post='341365']<br />
"Chin over bar" would be a better label (you cheeky shit)[/quote]<br />
My main objection is the label. You have people who can in reality do 3 pullups claiming that they can do 20<br />
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The purpose of a real pull up is to exercise the lats. The lats are responsible for bringing the elbow closer to the body (pullups, rows etc)<br />
The reason you 'kip' is to do most of the retraction of the elbows with momentum and without engaging the lats.<br />
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So while the start and end points are the same it's an entirely different exercise. It is getting chin to the bar by any means possible. -
[quote name='Duluth' timestamp='1359860065' post='341369']<br />
My main objection is the label. You have people who can in reality do 3 pullups claiming that they can do 20<br />
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The purpose of a real pull up is to exercise the lats. The lats are responsible for bringing the elbow closer to the body (pullups, rows etc)<br />
The reason you 'kip' is to do most of the retraction of the elbows with momentum and without engaging the lats.<br />
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So while the start and end points are the same it's an entirely different exercise. It is getting chin to the bar by any means possible.<br />
[/quote]<br />
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No, it's literally to pull yourself up over the bar, so there's nothing wrong with calling it that. For bodybuilding you want to isolate the lats, in crossfit you want to perform the movement efficiently, using as little energy as possible. They are achieving different goals.<br />
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It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare a bodybuilding movement (or strength training, whatever) to a gymnastic movement. Apples and Oranges. -
[quote name='Duluth' timestamp='1359860658' post='341371']<br />
The choice of name is what causes the comparison.<br />
[/quote]<br />
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It's called a kipping pull-up. And if the main site has it listed as simply a pull-up, that's because you can choose your method. <br />
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It's only confusing for people that think there is only one way to do a pull-up. -
I see TR did a assisted pull ups the other day. A great training method, but its clearly labelled as a cheat movement. I doubt he would ever simply refer to that movement as a pull up. Assisted pullups, kipping, negatives are all valid ways of extending sets<br />
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I just skimmed through the last few pages of you training thread and I saw more than 20 references to pullups but only one mention of kipping.<br />
Yet you've already conceded its a different exercise.<br />
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I'm not blaming you for that, crossfitters do it all the time. A large part of crossfit is marketing and hype.. I'm sure they are happy that crossfitters use the terms interchangeably and create confusion about the actual movement being completed.<br />
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Hail Xenu -
Context is everything, and in xFit it's assumed when there are large number of pull-ups you'll be kipping them. Same with muscle ups, handstand push-ups, large numbers of ring dips, bar muscle ups, the list goes on. <br />
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When I'm posting workouts i'll not be posting "kipping", same as I don't post squat snatch, or hand release push ups, or how I'm cycling my box jumps (although I record that info in my personal log). <br />
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Basically, I figure most people am aware I'm doing xFit workouts. <br />
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And just to be clear, a kipping pull-up is a pull-up. Has been for the decades that gymnastics have been using them, which is nothing to do with xFit "marketing". Same way a squat snatch and a power snatch are still a snatch, just different techniques.<br />
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But I'm sure you stopped reading a while ago, so you could come up with another "witty" Scientology quip. <br /> -
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359864823' post='341387']in xFit it's assumed when there are large number of pull-ups you'll be kipping them[/quote]<br />
Thats what I said earlier, crossfitters introduce confusion about the movement being performed. It's not because other people don't understand that cheat variations exist (as you claimed) its that crossfitters are using the term incorrectly -
I made a tongue in cheek comment about how the exercise should be labelled more clearly because kipping removes the main functional stress of the exercise. A point you conceded<br />
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You went on to say<br />
[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359862021' post='341375']It's only confusing for people that think there is only one way to do a pull-up.[/quote]<br />
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[quote name='Kirwan' timestamp='1359864823' post='341387']xFit it's assumed when there are large number of pull-ups you'll be kipping them. [/quote]<br />
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The confusion comes from crossfitters<br />
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It's like using the term press-ups when you are doing lady press-ups on your knee. It's a cheat variation (nothing wrong with that) and it shouldn't be used interchangeably with the real exercise. -
I see where you have gotten confused, it's with my second quote. If you read that in context (with the previous posts too) you'll see that I was describing how the WODs were open to interpretation. In this case if they write pullups, you you have a choice about how you perform them; deadhang, kipping, mixed grip, they are even relaxed enough to let you do chins.<br />
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They assume you'll do kipping because it's more efficient than deadhangs. You've interpreted that to mean the pull-up term is interchangeable, that and how I summarised by WODs. It's up to the person what they want to get out of the workout. The point of certain types of xFit workouts is to maintain intensity, so if you are taking a minute off between reps of ten to get to 50 pullups, you are not maintaining any sort of intensity. If you can do 50 deadhangs in a row, knock yourself out.<br />
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It's the same with something like the clean, if they write clean you can power or squat clean. If they write squat clean, that's how you have to do it. Same with the workouts that prescribe deadhang pullups.<br />
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[size=4]By the way, anybody that thinks these are a cheat exercise clearly hasn't done one, they are actually pretty difficult. I watch new guys come through the classes that can do deadhangs, but struggle to do sets of kipping pullups. It's because it's a skill, training for a different purpose.[/size]<br />
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[size=4]Both are pullups. Not sure why it's so confusing (the term existed before xFit, and nobody accused [/size]gymnasts[size=4] of "cheating").[/size]
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