Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz
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@taniwharugby said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/109923972/police-chases-for-traffic-offences-must-end
It’s sad that three young Ferals are dead but if they don’t chase the consequences could be worse . Have they closed comments yet?
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@canefan said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@MN5 said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@canefan said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@Siam said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@jegga said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
Irish Ferals are here
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12190060
One thing I've noticed during my lifetime is our decreasing ability as individuals or small groups in society to effectively enforce fundamental social norms.
Increasingly we need all manner of authority intervention to settle pretty obvious anti social situations.The upshot of all this is that if you strategically planned and executed a way of life where social approval meant nothing, there's fuck all ways we have of stopping that behaviour or even coping with it.
What to do with people that violate or ignore long held social contracts?
What do you do with people that won't pay fines and aren't deterred by the threat of jail (even on rare occasions where it gets that far)?
You can only remove them from your territory and even that's fraught with damning disapproval.
This is really evident in developing countries with slack law and order, where a community lead hiding takes the place ( bloody effectively to a point, I might add). But not in "civilised" 1st world.
The way things stand now these antisocial groups and individuals know that they'll face little or no consequences, and will be significantly empowered, and we'll have to clean up the mess because of public relations
Frustrates the fuck out of me, but that's what we've got because we have no plan be for 1 or 2 percent who don't give a fuck in a physical world
We need to take a leaf out of Singapore's book. Harshly punish those who engage in antisocial behaviours that have a significant impact on the rest of the population
Won't be happening anytime soon with horse face in charge. People acting feral is obviously on account of horrible upbringing so let's counsel them first instead of the genuine victims.
It's not just us. The West has gone totally overboard with individual rights. Fine these pikies for littering and public disturbance and deport the lot of them
It's the price we pay for our individual rights and freedoms. I take your point, and like everyone I'd like to see these assholes held to account, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to pay if it means the government stays the fuck out of my business.
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I'm not overly concerned if someone crashes and dies while fleeing the police. Seems like a pretty easy situation to avoid.
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@jegga said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@taniwharugby said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/109923972/police-chases-for-traffic-offences-must-end
It’s sad that three young Ferals are dead but if they don’t chase the consequences could be worse . Have they closed comments yet?
Holy shit 'articles' like this make my blood fucken boil.
I hope whoever wrote it gets anally probed by a fire hydrant.
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@No-Quarter laws prevent natural selection these days.
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I see those feral tourists are still making headlines...need to make sure the little feckers leave...but before we should introduce them to some of our feral locals (maybe some of the remote locations in Northland, BOP, Gisborne, Taranaki or any number or places) while they are in a mood for a fight!
I wonder who from Ireland will come out and apologise to the whole of NZ for them?
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@jegga said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
Ffs stuff
For most of my fifteen years as a first response copper in Qld I have been navigating a restrictive pursuit policy. Gradually over the years more and more restrictions have been placed on police, leading to what we effectively have now – a no pursuit policy. This is not strictly true, police are allowed to pursue if there is a proven imminent threat to life (not allowed to use officer instinct) and the risks of not pursuing outweigh the risks of pursuing. Without having the policy in front of me to quote, the way it is written there are very few scenarios that would allow police to pursue in accordance with the pursuit policy. Instructions from the police union are very clear – do not pursue because if it goes wrong the officers involved risk having the book thrown at them, criminally and civilly.
So how did Qld get to this point? We followed the same path NZ seems to be going along. There would be pursuits where the fleeing motorist crashed and died and the media would report them. There would be sounds bites from a member of the public or a family member saying if police hadn’t pursued little Johnny would still be alive. Channel Nine and the Courier Mail were two media outlets that couldn’t resist being vocal in their opposition towards pursuits. As more people died during pursuits the State Coroner started pointing the finger at police. It all came to a head a few years ago when a school girl (thirteen I think) was struck and killed by a fleeing driver as she walked home from school.
Early in my career (when we still pursued) I experienced the wrath of an old lady following a pursuit. My partner and I had been patrolling through a petrol station when a vehicle caught our eye. It was being driven by a male and there was a female in the passenger seat. We attempted to intercept the vehicle but the driver fled. We pursued for about fifteen minutes (that is actually a long time for a pursuit) before the vehicle lost control and wrecked it’s tyres on a gutter. The driver decamped on foot and we eventually ran him down. Upon walking him back to our police vehicle we were set upon by an angry older female. While she was spraying vitriol at us I saw a younger female standing behind her holding a baby. Then it dawned on me. The old lady was the grandmother of the baby, the younger female was the female who had been the passenger in the fleeing vehicle and the baby belonged to the female passenger and the male driver. The baby had been in the vehicle during the pursuit. The old lady was giving it to us, no holds barred. “How dare you chase a car while there was a baby in it” or words to that effect. I recall the pure hatred in her eyes and the spittle coming from her mouth as she unleashed on us. In her mind we had put her baby grandchild at risk by pursuing her son in-law and daughter. There were two people who knew there was a baby present during that pursuit and those two people were not in the pursuing police car. If we had a known there was a baby in the car that day we would not have pursued, but there was no way in hell we were going to convince the grandmother of this. And it was all because the driver had a suspended licence.
Nowadays we have effectively handed over the streets. Gangs of youths go on their crime sprees in stolen vehicles and we are virtually powerless to stop them. They drive around like fluffybunnies. It seems like nary a shift goes by without an instance of a vehicle failing to pull over for police. Stolen vehicles are seen roaming the streets every night, but there are restrictions placed on us that can stop us even attempting to intercept those stolen vehicles. It has come to a point where I (and numerous over officers I have spoken to) think twice about patrolling for a stolen vehicle that has been reported to us for fear of things going wrong, our every move scrutinised and us being hung out to dry. More often than not, we keep well away from the area the stolen car is in.
I haven’t seen any stats, but anecdotally it seems like instances of vehicles being driven directly at police have increased since the restrictive pursuit policy. The grubs know that if they are being closed in on by police all they have to do is get out of the immediate area and they will be home and dry. They will do anything to get away.
People say why don’t police arrest the driver later? It’s not that easy. A lot of the cars are stolen and even if you recognise the driver you still have to convince a magistrate. And that is very hard when all you had was a fleeting glimpse as the car sped away. If the cars aren’t reported stolen at the time of an evade, you can bet your arse they will be reported shortly afterwards. Old matey drives off from police and then shits himself thinking police got his number plate. No worries, all old matey needs to do is dump the car somewhere and report his car stolen. Tell police he must have left his front door unlocked and some grub came in and got the car keys and stole the car. It’s pretty bloody hard to prove otherwise.
It has been many years since somebody has been killed during a police pursuit in Queensland. I am conflicted as to whether police should be pursuing with the way society is today. I make it quite clear to younger officers, don’t fucking pursue. It is not worth your job, your house, and your freedom. On the one hand the roads have turned into a free passage for the grubs and it fucking bugs me. I could provide examples of grubs that have been in police sights, have been allowed to get away because of the pursuit policy and have subsequently caused injury or worse to innocent people. On the other hand, no innocent parties have been killed during pursuits. I couldn’t give a shit if the fleeing grubs kill themselves, but I care about the innocent people who are hit by these grubs. Innocent people acceptable collateral damage? What if that person is one of your loved ones? Still acceptable?
And there is one last powerful motivating factor for police departments around the world to head towards a restrictive pursuit policy. They are scared of getting sued when things go wrong.
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@taniwharugby said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
I see those feral tourists are still making headlines...need to make sure the little feckers leave...but before we should introduce them to some of our feral locals (maybe some of the remote locations in Northland, BOP, Gisborne, Taranaki or any number or places) while they are in a mood for a fight!
I wonder who from Ireland will come out and apologise to the whole of NZ for them?
Brian ODriscoll is my pick.
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@taniwharugby said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
I see those feral tourists are still making headlines...need to make sure the little feckers leave...but before we should introduce them to some of our feral locals (maybe some of the remote locations in Northland, BOP, Gisborne, Taranaki or any number or places) while they are in a mood for a fight!
I wonder who from Ireland will come out and apologise to the whole of NZ for them?
I bet they struggle to find a restaurant that will serve them . Worst Irish tourists since BOD in 2005
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@Crazy-Horse well put mate.
Sadly, we rarely hear a well reasoned point like you make, all we hear is the anti-police side, the PCA saying officers did nothing wrong...then the ferals again saying typical, they are looking after thier own.
I was on the verge of joining the police force in 2013 (had passed the required tests - PT & Psycho) but it was simply timing that conspired against me, I often think about that and where I'd be now, but by the same token, I think man, I would not like to have to deal with alot of the shit cops deal with, and it seems like it will only get worse.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@jegga said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
Ffs stuff
For most of my fifteen years as a first response copper in Qld I have been navigating a restrictive pursuit policy. Gradually over the years more and more restrictions have been placed on police, leading to what we effectively have now – a no pursuit policy. This is not strictly true, police are allowed to pursue if there is a proven imminent threat to life (not allowed to use officer instinct) and the risks of not pursuing outweigh the risks of pursuing. Without having the policy in front of me to quote, the way it is written there are very few scenarios that would allow police to pursue in accordance with the pursuit policy. Instructions from the police union are very clear – do not pursue because if it goes wrong the officers involved risk having the book thrown at them, criminally and civilly.
So how did Qld get to this point? We followed the same path NZ seems to be going along. There would be pursuits where the fleeing motorist crashed and died and the media would report them. There would be sounds bites from a member of the public or a family member saying if police hadn’t pursued little Johnny would still be alive. Channel Nine and the Courier Mail were two media outlets that couldn’t resist being vocal in their opposition towards pursuits. As more people died during pursuits the State Coroner started pointing the finger at police. It all came to a head a few years ago when a school girl (thirteen I think) was struck and killed by a fleeing driver as she walked home from school.
Early in my career (when we still pursued) I experienced the wrath of an old lady following a pursuit. My partner and I had been patrolling through a petrol station when a vehicle caught our eye. It was being driven by a male and there was a female in the passenger seat. We attempted to intercept the vehicle but the driver fled. We pursued for about fifteen minutes (that is actually a long time for a pursuit) before the vehicle lost control and wrecked it’s tyres on a gutter. The driver decamped on foot and we eventually ran him down. Upon walking him back to our police vehicle we were set upon by an angry older female. While she was spraying vitriol at us I saw a younger female standing behind her holding a baby. Then it dawned on me. The old lady was the grandmother of the baby, the younger female was the female who had been the passenger in the fleeing vehicle and the baby belonged to the female passenger and the male driver. The baby had been in the vehicle during the pursuit. The old lady was giving it to us, no holds barred. “How dare you chase a car while there was a baby in it” or words to that effect. I recall the pure hatred in her eyes and the spittle coming from her mouth as she unleashed on us. In her mind we had put her baby grandchild at risk by pursuing her son in-law and daughter. There were two people who knew there was a baby present during that pursuit and those two people were not in the pursuing police car. If we had a known there was a baby in the car that day we would not have pursued, but there was no way in hell we were going to convince the grandmother of this. And it was all because the driver had a suspended licence.
Nowadays we have effectively handed over the streets. Gangs of youths go on their crime sprees in stolen vehicles and we are virtually powerless to stop them. They drive around like fluffybunnies. It seems like nary a shift goes by without an instance of a vehicle failing to pull over for police. Stolen vehicles are seen roaming the streets every night, but there are restrictions placed on us that can stop us even attempting to intercept those stolen vehicles. It has come to a point where I (and numerous over officers I have spoken to) think twice about patrolling for a stolen vehicle that has been reported to us for fear of things going wrong, our every move scrutinised and us being hung out to dry. More often than not, we keep well away from the area the stolen car is in.
I haven’t seen any stats, but anecdotally it seems like instances of vehicles being driven directly at police have increased since the restrictive pursuit policy. The grubs know that if they are being closed in on by police all they have to do is get out of the immediate area and they will be home and dry. They will do anything to get away.
People say why don’t police arrest the driver later? It’s not that easy. A lot of the cars are stolen and even if you recognise the driver you still have to convince a magistrate. And that is very hard when all you had was a fleeting glimpse as the car sped away. If the cars aren’t reported stolen at the time of an evade, you can bet your arse they will be reported shortly afterwards. Old matey drives off from police and then shits himself thinking police got his number plate. No worries, all old matey needs to do is dump the car somewhere and report his car stolen. Tell police he must have left his front door unlocked and some grub came in and got the car keys and stole the car. It’s pretty bloody hard to prove otherwise.
It has been many years since somebody has been killed during a police pursuit in Queensland. I am conflicted as to whether police should be pursuing with the way society is today. I make it quite clear to younger officers, don’t fucking pursue. It is not worth your job, your house, and your freedom. On the one hand the roads have turned into a free passage for the grubs and it fucking bugs me. I could provide examples of grubs that have been in police sights, have been allowed to get away because of the pursuit policy and have subsequently caused injury or worse to innocent people. On the other hand, no innocent parties have been killed during pursuits. I couldn’t give a shit if the fleeing grubs kill themselves, but I care about the innocent people who are hit by these grubs. Innocent people acceptable collateral damage? What if that person is one of your loved ones? Still acceptable?
And there is one last powerful motivating factor for police departments around the world to head towards a restrictive pursuit policy. They are scared of getting sued when things go wrong.
This post and then some. As Police what do you actually possibly do to please the biggest group of people?
Imagine if the baby had died? Your life and career would be ruined yet obviously a massive argument could be made that it wasn't your fault.
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@Crazy-Horse thanks for taking the time to write that mate. Very enlightening
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@taniwharugby said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
@Crazy-Horse well put mate.
Sadly, we rarely hear a well reasoned point like you make, all we hear is the anti-police side, the PCA saying officers did nothing wrong...then the ferals again saying typical, they are looking after thier own.
I was on the verge of joining the police force in 2013 (had passed the required tests - PT & Psycho) but it was simply timing that conspired against me, I often think about that and where I'd be now, but by the same token, I think man, I would not like to have to deal with alot of the shit cops deal with, and it seems like it will only get worse.
I've never agreed with a post of yours more than this. All things considered I'm glad I never joined either
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For once the ferald actually asks the question, why were three young Ferals in a stolen car in the early hours of the morning?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12190591
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@taniwharugby it's an interesting career and I am not just talking about the jobs you do. It changes you as a person in interesting ways, and sometimes in ways you and your family will not like.
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@jegga said in Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12190094
Mark Nicholas is such a complete fluffybunny.
I hope he gets in trouble for this.