The Underarm Ball
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@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
Yeah but Andy wore the black jersey. So it's all good
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@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .
They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.
Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.
As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.
Simulation in rugby?
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Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...
From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Ta$man and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.
From the Aus side... I find it really strange that no one has ever really tried to defend the underarm. I mean... it was legal at the time. It was the very definition of pushing things to the line but without going over. Australia do tend to do this when they get caught going maybe too close (or too far over) the line. Same with the ball tampering in South Africa, once caught no one tried to say "Dozens of players have been caught in the past year by the ICC including ABdV who is captaining this other mob - if you think we are the only ones doing this you are kidding yourself".
That said it is probably the most concise example of the two nation's respective sporting psyches there has ever been.
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@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .
They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.
Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow to muddy the water and allow us to rationalise the event. But, we cheated.
No sympathy for the Weksh thugs.
Two words: Fenwick, Curry.
Karma's a bitch huh boyos?
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@SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .
They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.
Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.
As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.
Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.
Define disgraceful.
Play acting
Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his careerHmm
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@rotated said in The Underarm Ball:
Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...
From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Ta$man and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.
It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years
(Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)
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@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .
They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.
Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.
As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.
Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.
Define disgraceful.
Play acting
Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his careerHmm
Whats your view on Meads/Catchpole then?
In the 1970s, if you're getting roughed up in the lineouts there were 2 acceptable methods at the time. Counter-biffo, or tactical short lineouts (as Mourie did the year before in Paris 77).
Never before or since has diving out of a lineout been acceptable in rugby. But especially back then.
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@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@rotated said in The Underarm Ball:
Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...
From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Ta$man and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.
It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years
(Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)
IMO. The intensity of the underarm incident diminished over the years as the importance of ODIs diminished, so the historical context over the years reduced.
Also, no one seriously thought NZ could tie the match from that situation. What we witnessed was an Australian captain mentally disintegrate and inflict self-harm by making e a terrible decision which conveniently gave NZers a good stick to beat Australian's with for a few years. Then as the importance diminished it still gave NZers a source for a humourus tease.
The underarm was the best thing that happened to NZ cricket at the time, massive publicity.
Also NZ was able to get revenge on the playing field fairly quickly (we won our next ODI v them the following season etc).
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@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .
They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.
Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.
As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.
Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.
Define disgraceful.
Play acting
Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his careerHmm
Whats your view on Meads/Catchpole then?
In the 1970s, if you're getting roughed up in the lineouts there were 2 acceptable methods at the time. Counter-biffo, or tactical short lineouts (as Mourie did the year before in Paris 77).
Never before or since has diving out of a lineout been acceptable in rugby. But especially back then.
Have you seen the Catchpole incident? I’d like to see some footage to judge for myself
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@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .
They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.
Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.
As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.
Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.
Define disgraceful.
Play acting
Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his careerHmm
I think Hadens act was worse given the way rugby was played in those days.
The good old days
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@SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:
@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .
They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.
Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.
As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.
Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.
Define disgraceful.
Play acting
Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his careerHmm
I think Hadens act was worse given the way rugby was played in those days.
The good old days
Plus he played for Auckland.
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Thinking about Andy Haden. He ended up on the wrong side of history thorughout much of his life IMO.
Cardiff 78
Cavaliers 86
Hart v Wylie media attack dog 88 - 91
Hart v Mains media attack dog 92 - 95The only thing he was right on was the amateur / shamateur line he pushed. Getting paid to wear sponsor's products (Laser boots ). Sitting out the 1984 tour in protest.
He pushed a lot of lines through out his life, so fair enough, he's going to ruffle some feathers.
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@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@rotated said in The Underarm Ball:
Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...
From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Ta$man and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.
It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years
(Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)
IMO. The intensity of the underarm incident diminished over the years as the importance of ODIs diminished, so the historical context over the years reduced.
Also, no one seriously thought NZ could tie the match from that situation. What we witnessed was an Australian captain mentally disintegrate and inflict self-harm by making e a terrible decision which conveniently gave NZers a good stick to beat Australian's with for a few years. Then as the importance diminished it still gave NZers a source for a humourus tease.
The underarm was the best thing that happened to NZ cricket at the time, massive publicity.
Also NZ was able to get revenge on the playing field fairly quickly (we won our next ODI v them the following season etc).
The fact that the game was all but unwinnable made the act even more petty and typically Australian in my view. Funny that Greg had so little faith in his little brother being able to stop our number 11 replacement batsman from scoring a 6 that bowling under arm was a more attractive option. Still it gives us kiwis something else to laugh about
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@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@rotated said in The Underarm Ball:
Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...
From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Ta$man and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.
It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years
(Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)
IMO. The intensity of the underarm incident diminished over the years as the importance of ODIs diminished, so the historical context over the years reduced.
Also, no one seriously thought NZ could tie the match from that situation. What we witnessed was an Australian captain mentally disintegrate and inflict self-harm by making e a terrible decision which conveniently gave NZers a good stick to beat Australian's with for a few years. Then as the importance diminished it still gave NZers a source for a humourus tease.
The underarm was the best thing that happened to NZ cricket at the time, massive publicity.
Also NZ was able to get revenge on the playing field fairly quickly (we won our next ODI v them the following season etc).
The fact that the game was all but unwinnable made the act even more petty and typically Australian in my view. Funny that Greg had so little faith in his little brother being able to stop our number 11 replacement batsman from scoring a 6 that bowling under arm was a more attractive option. Still it gives us kiwis something else to laugh about
I read Chappell's autobiography back in the day. His justification was that McKenchie was a "big bloke" and that freaked him out. In other words he was petrified by the sight of an Allblack and chose to cheat.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@rotated said in The Underarm Ball:
Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...
From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Ta$man and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.
It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years
(Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)
IMO. The intensity of the underarm incident diminished over the years as the importance of ODIs diminished, so the historical context over the years reduced.
Also, no one seriously thought NZ could tie the match from that situation. What we witnessed was an Australian captain mentally disintegrate and inflict self-harm by making e a terrible decision which conveniently gave NZers a good stick to beat Australian's with for a few years. Then as the importance diminished it still gave NZers a source for a humourus tease.
The underarm was the best thing that happened to NZ cricket at the time, massive publicity.
Also NZ was able to get revenge on the playing field fairly quickly (we won our next ODI v them the following season etc).
The fact that the game was all but unwinnable made the act even more petty and typically Australian in my view. Funny that Greg had so little faith in his little brother being able to stop our number 11 replacement batsman from scoring a 6 that bowling under arm was a more attractive option. Still it gives us kiwis something else to laugh about
I read Chappell's autobiography back in the day. His justification was that McKenchie was a "big bloke" and that freaked him out. In other words he was petrified by the sight of an Allblack and chose to cheat.
Sixes were pretty rare back then, 5 or 6 runs an over was considered a strong ODI scoring rate. That's why guys like Lance Cairns and Viv Richards were larger than life. These days everyone hits them.
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@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@rotated said in The Underarm Ball:
Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...
From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Ta$man and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.
It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years
(Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)
IMO. The intensity of the underarm incident diminished over the years as the importance of ODIs diminished, so the historical context over the years reduced.
Also, no one seriously thought NZ could tie the match from that situation. What we witnessed was an Australian captain mentally disintegrate and inflict self-harm by making e a terrible decision which conveniently gave NZers a good stick to beat Australian's with for a few years. Then as the importance diminished it still gave NZers a source for a humourus tease.
The underarm was the best thing that happened to NZ cricket at the time, massive publicity.
Also NZ was able to get revenge on the playing field fairly quickly (we won our next ODI v them the following season etc).
The fact that the game was all but unwinnable made the act even more petty and typically Australian in my view. Funny that Greg had so little faith in his little brother being able to stop our number 11 replacement batsman from scoring a 6 that bowling under arm was a more attractive option. Still it gives us kiwis something else to laugh about
I read Chappell's autobiography back in the day. His justification was that McKenchie was a "big bloke" and that freaked him out. In other words he was petrified by the sight of an Allblack and chose to cheat.
Sixes were pretty rare back then, 5 or 6 runs an over was considered a strong ODI scoring rate. That's why guys like Lance Cairns and Viv Richards were larger than life. These days everyone hits them.
Exactly. The chance of BM hitting a six was zero. I don't think he'd actually ever even hit one in ODIs, let alone at the MCG.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@rotated said in The Underarm Ball:
Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...
From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Ta$man and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.
It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years
(Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)
IMO. The intensity of the underarm incident diminished over the years as the importance of ODIs diminished, so the historical context over the years reduced.
Also, no one seriously thought NZ could tie the match from that situation. What we witnessed was an Australian captain mentally disintegrate and inflict self-harm by making e a terrible decision which conveniently gave NZers a good stick to beat Australian's with for a few years. Then as the importance diminished it still gave NZers a source for a humourus tease.
The underarm was the best thing that happened to NZ cricket at the time, massive publicity.
Also NZ was able to get revenge on the playing field fairly quickly (we won our next ODI v them the following season etc).
The fact that the game was all but unwinnable made the act even more petty and typically Australian in my view. Funny that Greg had so little faith in his little brother being able to stop our number 11 replacement batsman from scoring a 6 that bowling under arm was a more attractive option. Still it gives us kiwis something else to laugh about
I read Chappell's autobiography back in the day. His justification was that McKenchie was a "big bloke" and that freaked him out. In other words he was petrified by the sight of an Allblack and chose to cheat.
Sixes were pretty rare back then, 5 or 6 runs an over was considered a strong ODI scoring rate. That's why guys like Lance Cairns and Viv Richards were larger than life. These days everyone hits them.
Exactly. The chance of BM hitting a six was zero. I don't think he'd actually ever even hit one in ODIs, let alone at the MCG.
We can barely clear the rope there now! The key to winning at the G is to make extra runs inside the field by quick running between the wickets
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@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@booboo said in The Underarm Ball:
@SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@jegga said in The Underarm Ball:
@Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:
@canefan said in The Underarm Ball:
Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude
To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.
It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .
They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.
Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.
As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.
Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.
Define disgraceful.
Play acting
Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his careerHmm
Whats your view on Meads/Catchpole then?
In the 1970s, if you're getting roughed up in the lineouts there were 2 acceptable methods at the time. Counter-biffo, or tactical short lineouts (as Mourie did the year before in Paris 77).
Never before or since has diving out of a lineout been acceptable in rugby. But especially back then.
Can't comment on Meads-Catchpole. I can only base it on what I've read, and Meads is adamant there was no malice in it. Given his known penchant for on field brutality I'm inclined to think he'd own up if there was. Beyond that I've never seen the incident but plenty of Aussies who did, and plenty who didn't, think it was pretty low.
As for 1978, to my mind the act of violence far out bads a little embarrassing gamesmanship.
