Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth
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@Frank said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Crucial said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
I think I'd rather try Ben Smith there.
Ben from Accounts will humbly apply himself and become bloody good at first-five (in a humble way) and then gee shucks win the World Cup as he accepts the World Player of the Year at first five (and also the world's most humble player.)
Take our first choice 15 out of his position and into one he has never played at test level (has he ever played it at super level)? That is some Hart-Cullen level strategy right there
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@canefan said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Frank said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Crucial said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
I think I'd rather try Ben Smith there.
Ben from Accounts will humbly apply himself and become bloody good at first-five (in a humble way) and then gee shucks win the World Cup as he accepts the World Player of the Year at first five (and also the world's most humble player.)
Take our first choice 15 out of his position and into one he has never played at test level (has he ever played it at super level)? That is some Hart-Cullen level strategy right there
Silly old Hart. Even pissed up MN5 knew the best backline he coulda shoehorned in was 11 Jonah 12 Ieremia 13 Umaga 14 Wilson 14 Cullen.......
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Anyone suggesting we should a player out of position (unless in an actual emergency situation) in arguably the most pivotal position of first five must be high as a kite.
And using the experienced card, pull the other one. I’d say experience playing 10 in super rugby overrides any perceived advantage in having someone with test match experience yet playing in a position foreign to them.
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@MN5 said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@canefan said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
Jordie is the my choice. You can joke about the charge downs but at the end of the day he has the quality and skills to fit in and do a decent job rather than hinder the players around him. He made a decent fist of his chances in black so far. And that us about all you can ask for if you get to the third stringer
I don't think the charge downs would be a joke - they'd be the number one thing I would target.
There's a reason most first fives are nippy little guys whose feet are close to their hands - because those extra hundredths of seconds it takes someone with long levers like Jordie - who is 20cm taller than people like DC and Mo'unga - to catch, drop and kick the ball are critical. And it's in the bio-mechanics of everything they do - they've got more power, but they take more time.
Henry Honiball, Stephen Larkham, Jonathan Sexton, Steven Donald and Jordies shorter but still quite tall brother Beauden are reading this and getting pissed off at it's inaccuracy.
tallest of that lot (Larkham) is still 6cm shorter than JB...
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@MN5 said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@canefan said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
Jordie is the my choice. You can joke about the charge downs but at the end of the day he has the quality and skills to fit in and do a decent job rather than hinder the players around him. He made a decent fist of his chances in black so far. And that us about all you can ask for if you get to the third stringer
I don't think the charge downs would be a joke - they'd be the number one thing I would target.
There's a reason most first fives are nippy little guys whose feet are close to their hands - because those extra hundredths of seconds it takes someone with long levers like Jordie - who is 20cm taller than people like DC and Mo'unga - to catch, drop and kick the ball are critical. And it's in the bio-mechanics of everything they do - they've got more power, but they take more time.
Henry Honiball, Stephen Larkham, Jonathan Sexton, Steven Donald and Jordies shorter but still quite tall brother Beauden are reading this and getting pissed off at it's inaccuracy.
Yes.
But, you'd think there would be huge advantages to having a first five who weighs 110kg compared to the 85kg lightweights who mainly occupy the position. The guys who get steam-rolled when the forwards drive close to the line. The guys like Mehrts and Cooper who get shifted out of the defensive line.
And yet there aren't too many of these 110kg first fives.
Why not?
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@canefan said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Frank said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Crucial said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
I think I'd rather try Ben Smith there.
Ben from Accounts will humbly apply himself and become bloody good at first-five (in a humble way) and then gee shucks win the World Cup as he accepts the World Player of the Year at first five (and also the world's most humble player.)
Take our first choice 15 out of his position and into one he has never played at test level (has he ever played it at super level)? That is some Hart-Cullen level strategy right there
It was also a joke.
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@taniwharugby said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@MN5 said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@canefan said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
Jordie is the my choice. You can joke about the charge downs but at the end of the day he has the quality and skills to fit in and do a decent job rather than hinder the players around him. He made a decent fist of his chances in black so far. And that us about all you can ask for if you get to the third stringer
I don't think the charge downs would be a joke - they'd be the number one thing I would target.
There's a reason most first fives are nippy little guys whose feet are close to their hands - because those extra hundredths of seconds it takes someone with long levers like Jordie - who is 20cm taller than people like DC and Mo'unga - to catch, drop and kick the ball are critical. And it's in the bio-mechanics of everything they do - they've got more power, but they take more time.
Henry Honiball, Stephen Larkham, Jonathan Sexton, Steven Donald and Jordies shorter but still quite tall brother Beauden are reading this and getting pissed off at it's inaccuracy.
tallest of that lot (Larkham) is still 6cm shorter than JB...
Don't always believe stats, Honiball is a tall rangy bloke.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@MN5 said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@canefan said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
Jordie is the my choice. You can joke about the charge downs but at the end of the day he has the quality and skills to fit in and do a decent job rather than hinder the players around him. He made a decent fist of his chances in black so far. And that us about all you can ask for if you get to the third stringer
I don't think the charge downs would be a joke - they'd be the number one thing I would target.
There's a reason most first fives are nippy little guys whose feet are close to their hands - because those extra hundredths of seconds it takes someone with long levers like Jordie - who is 20cm taller than people like DC and Mo'unga - to catch, drop and kick the ball are critical. And it's in the bio-mechanics of everything they do - they've got more power, but they take more time.
Henry Honiball, Stephen Larkham, Jonathan Sexton, Steven Donald and Jordies shorter but still quite tall brother Beauden are reading this and getting pissed off at it's inaccuracy.
Yes.
But, you'd think there would be huge advantages to having a first five who weighs 110kg compared to the 85kg lightweights who mainly occupy the position. The guys who get steam-rolled when the forwards drive close to the line. The guys like Mehrts and Cooper who get shifted out of the defensive line.
And yet there aren't too many of these 110kg first fives.
Why not?
Not enough progessive forward thinking from the coaches. A Nonu type player at first five could just be the magic trick we need to pull to catch the world off guard and romp home as he steamrolls over the opposition 10 time and time again.
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@MN5 said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@canefan said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
Jordie is the my choice. You can joke about the charge downs but at the end of the day he has the quality and skills to fit in and do a decent job rather than hinder the players around him. He made a decent fist of his chances in black so far. And that us about all you can ask for if you get to the third stringer
I don't think the charge downs would be a joke - they'd be the number one thing I would target.
There's a reason most first fives are nippy little guys whose feet are close to their hands - because those extra hundredths of seconds it takes someone with long levers like Jordie - who is 20cm taller than people like DC and Mo'unga - to catch, drop and kick the ball are critical. And it's in the bio-mechanics of everything they do - they've got more power, but they take more time.
Henry Honiball, Stephen Larkham, Jonathan Sexton, Steven Donald and Jordies shorter but still quite tall brother Beauden are reading this and getting pissed off at it's inaccuracy.
Stephen Larkham was a fullback, pressed into 1st five out of necessity. It took quite a long time to get some aspects of the job right -- a luxury we won't have.
I don't think it's bio-mechanics, it's more a matter of different positions requiring different types of kicks. Fullbacks are expected to be able to punt the ball long, and if they take a long run up and an age to do so there's no real drawback to that. First-fives are required to get the ball off quickly and often have stabby kicking styles to do so -- at the expense of distance.
Leon MacDonald apparently was quite experienced at #10, so I'm told. But when forced to play at #10 for the ABs his years of fullback play became apparent -- he wasn't tall, but he had the slow kick of a fullback.
Freaks like Henry Honiball who could play anywhere in a backline brilliantly aren't useful guides. We are looking at guys who clearly aren't close to being able to do that. If they could they'd already be starters.
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@No-Quarter I'd play Nonu at first five ahead of Jordie!
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@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@MN5 said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@canefan said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
Jordie is the my choice. You can joke about the charge downs but at the end of the day he has the quality and skills to fit in and do a decent job rather than hinder the players around him. He made a decent fist of his chances in black so far. And that us about all you can ask for if you get to the third stringer
I don't think the charge downs would be a joke - they'd be the number one thing I would target.
There's a reason most first fives are nippy little guys whose feet are close to their hands - because those extra hundredths of seconds it takes someone with long levers like Jordie - who is 20cm taller than people like DC and Mo'unga - to catch, drop and kick the ball are critical. And it's in the bio-mechanics of everything they do - they've got more power, but they take more time.
Henry Honiball, Stephen Larkham, Jonathan Sexton, Steven Donald and Jordies shorter but still quite tall brother Beauden are reading this and getting pissed off at it's inaccuracy.
Yes.
But, you'd think there would be huge advantages to having a first five who weighs 110kg compared to the 85kg lightweights who mainly occupy the position. The guys who get steam-rolled when the forwards drive close to the line. The guys like Mehrts and Cooper who get shifted out of the defensive line.
And yet there aren't too many of these 110kg first fives.
Why not?
Because when you are at school level you have a little fellas who are mighty quick and nimble and deserve to be in the team. You also have big skilled guys. To get them both in, the small guys play halfback and first five and the bigger ones centre and fullback. That then tends to be the positions they play later.
If you played your big skilled guys at first-five and halfback you'd be leaving out skilled players to do so, and few schools have that luxury.
Given that there's ten little fellas for every genuinely big one, the overwhelming number of half-backs and first-fives are small just by weight of numbers going for that position. But that doesn't mean you need to be to play those positions.
I've seen enormous half-backs (Junior Tonu'u's brother, for example, was a halfback and easily mistaken for prop) and very tall first-fives.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@No-Quarter I'd play Nonu at first five ahead of Jordie!
Nonu is short and actually has a decent boot on him. Think we're on to something here.
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I like JB, but I think it's 50/50 that he will cost us a game.
Even if his kick is a little slow, there is always a chance he would throw an intercept pass. I'd be fine if he was playing a game against a minnow, but I'd have no fingernails if used at 10 in a real test.
I would play for 3rd string whoever has the least chance to f it up. I'm thinking Black.
Just has to distribute without an intercept and kick ok. -
@Chester-Draws There is certainly some truth to that.
But, in a physical game like rugby, size is going to be an advantage in every position - everything else being equal. And yet these huge players don't emerge as elite halfbacks and first fives - when they've got that initial size advantage. So there must be other factors working against them.
I think there's probably a corollary with Jonah Lomu. Everyone saw the massive advantage that a 118kg wing could give a team - but, subsequently wings that size have been scarce as hens' teeth - because at the end of the day, there's very few 118 kg guys who can run fast enough to play on the wing.
Very few big guys with the deftness to play in the inside backs.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@Chester-Draws There is certainly some truth to that.
But, in a physical game like rugby, size is going to be an advantage in every position - everything else being equal. And yet these huge players don't emerge as elite halfbacks and first fives - when they've got that initial size advantage. So there must be other factors working against them.
I think there's probably a corollary with Jonah Lomu. Everyone saw the massive advantage that a 118kg wing could give a team - but, subsequently wings that size have been scarce as hens' teeth - because at the end of the day, there's very few 118 kg guys who can run fast enough to play on the wing.
Very few big guys with the deftness to play in the inside backs.
These days there's heaps actually.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: ABs new First Five-Eighth:
@MN5 There's Nemani Nadolo. Remind me of some others.
What's the cut off ? Some of these guys are pretty close in weight......
George North, Tim Visser, English guy Joe whatever, Matt Banahan, Nikki Walker, Julian Savea, one or two of the Tuilagis.....
