Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@nzzp have AC stopped sending out rates notices as well?
oh, my sides
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback I agree we are in for a very rough ride economically for the next 3-5 years. The hope is we can contain it to mid 70's scale rather than mid 30's. Because successive governments have managed the economy prudently I am optimistic that we can. We are also structurally better equipped than in either the 70's or 30's.
Part of the issue is the majority of NZers haven't experienced large unemployment before. Last time was 91?
I am very concerned. However I don't see many other countries who are managing the crisis effectively. Taiwan, Sth Korea. Singapore - maybe? Australia seem to be doing well but that seems happy chance more than policy. Almost every country that has been held up as the poster child of minimal intervention has gradually moved into the mire. On that basis I am prepared to accept the short sharp shock treatment, but it is a gamble. That's why the fucking lockdown breakers - both individuals and companies really fuck me off
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan Truedeau is irrelevant for me but is that what Jacinda has said? That they will worry about it later, despite pumping money back into business to help them stay afloat where possible?
Worry about it later is a direct Trudeau quote. Jacinda has said that she will not put the economy before peoples lives, admittedly early in the crisis.
IMO, that's in the same boat, as we routinely put the ecomomy before people's lives. We have a rationed health system (we don't provide life saving drugs to some people if it's too expensive, for example).
I just get concerned when I hear people like Dr Bloomfield talk about eradicating the virus. At what cost?
At the moment if we get just two suicides for a hopeless outlook thanks to job losses, then we have double the death rate of the virus. I want to know they have a line in the sand where, as Antipodean keeps stating, the cure is worse than the disease.
I'm not seeing it, I see a pretty dogmatic, almost blinkered approach at the moment. As if cratering the economy can be fixed later.
I don't have that downbeat look to this. That is part of what we will go through and not a reason to change anything in my view. People are going to die and some will kill themselves and that is a sad outcome but not one that I think we need to be doing anything different because.
Give yourself time as this economic collapse starts blooming outwards and starts badly effecting you know.
I understand that will happen as it will drastically affect me and our business.
I prefer talking about how we can get out of this economically rather than the flip side and talk about why we didn't do anything to save the thousands that died.
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@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan Truedeau is irrelevant for me but is that what Jacinda has said? That they will worry about it later, despite pumping money back into business to help them stay afloat where possible?
Worry about it later is a direct Trudeau quote. Jacinda has said that she will not put the economy before peoples lives, admittedly early in the crisis.
IMO, that's in the same boat, as we routinely put the ecomomy before people's lives. We have a rationed health system (we don't provide life saving drugs to some people if it's too expensive, for example).
I just get concerned when I hear people like Dr Bloomfield talk about eradicating the virus. At what cost?
At the moment if we get just two suicides for a hopeless outlook thanks to job losses, then we have double the death rate of the virus. I want to know they have a line in the sand where, as Antipodean keeps stating, the cure is worse than the disease.
I'm not seeing it, I see a pretty dogmatic, almost blinkered approach at the moment. As if cratering the economy can be fixed later.
I don't have that downbeat look to this. That is part of what we will go through and not a reason to change anything in my view. People are going to die and some will kill themselves and that is a sad outcome but not one that I think we need to be doing anything different because.
Give yourself time as this economic collapse starts blooming outwards and starts badly effecting you know.
I understand that will happen as it will drastically affect me and our business.
I prefer talking about how we can get out of this economically rather than the flip side and talk about why we didn't do anything to save the thousands that died.
With respect it doesn't seem that way. You seem to be just accepting the govt response and not really believing the argument that irreparable damage is being done to peoples lives as we sit at home, a bomb is ticking away. Thousands that could have died? There is a halfway point.. other countries have shown us. We went full tilt... costs be damned.
Looking at the above criteria for level 3... why did we ever leave that? The criteria are exactly what we have ever had. -
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/120872779/roads-empty-as-lockdown-nears-halfway-mark
Looks like the official data shows us taking this seriously.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Hooroo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan Truedeau is irrelevant for me but is that what Jacinda has said? That they will worry about it later, despite pumping money back into business to help them stay afloat where possible?
Worry about it later is a direct Trudeau quote. Jacinda has said that she will not put the economy before peoples lives, admittedly early in the crisis.
IMO, that's in the same boat, as we routinely put the ecomomy before people's lives. We have a rationed health system (we don't provide life saving drugs to some people if it's too expensive, for example).
I just get concerned when I hear people like Dr Bloomfield talk about eradicating the virus. At what cost?
At the moment if we get just two suicides for a hopeless outlook thanks to job losses, then we have double the death rate of the virus. I want to know they have a line in the sand where, as Antipodean keeps stating, the cure is worse than the disease.
I'm not seeing it, I see a pretty dogmatic, almost blinkered approach at the moment. As if cratering the economy can be fixed later.
I don't have that downbeat look to this. That is part of what we will go through and not a reason to change anything in my view. People are going to die and some will kill themselves and that is a sad outcome but not one that I think we need to be doing anything different because.
Give yourself time as this economic collapse starts blooming outwards and starts badly effecting you know.
I understand that will happen as it will drastically affect me and our business.
I prefer talking about how we can get out of this economically rather than the flip side and talk about why we didn't do anything to save the thousands that died.
With respect it doesn't seem that way. You seem to be just accepting the govt response and not really believing the argument that irreparable damage is being done to peoples lives as we sit at home, a bomb is ticking away. Thousands that could have died? There is a halfway point.. other countries have shown us. We went full tilt... costs be damned.
Looking at the above criteria for level 3... why did we ever leave that? The criteria are exactly what we have ever had.and in this instance, I am happy with the response, despite the impact it will have on our business.
If it is twice as bad as GFC then so be it. I don't mind having to work hard and starting again. It won't be from scratch.
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Something else to consider in the death counts - a lower road toll.
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@Godder said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Something else to consider in the death counts - a lower road toll.
Not worth considering at all. Thats like saying Hitler was helping prevent old age cancer in jews....
But if we do go down this rabbit hole... the numebr one target ofall these health officials sugary drinks.... mot people wouldnt mind that being banned. But number 2.. alcohol. All the arguments they make add up form a public health perspective.... lets see how Hooroo responds to that 'greater good' argument.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan @Baron-Silas-Greenback - I see no evidence that the government isn't incredibly concerned about the economy. They're spending billions to support it.
I’ve tried to stay well away from this but I couldn’t let this go by unchallenged.
Spending money the way the government is doing is not supporting the economy. It is moving money - that they don’t actually have, by the way - from one part of the economy to another. Every dollar they spend this way is a dollar not spent on something they previously thought was essential. If that was infrastructure, which boosts GDP, then that infrastructure will not now be built.
The way to repair the economy is to let the economy do what it does, finding the most efficient way to allocate the available resources with the intention of increasing their value. That is something that clearly isn’t happening at the moment, because the majority of participants in the economy are banned from working.
However good the intentions of the government are, they aren’t supporting the economy as much as running it.
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@Godder said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Something else to consider in the death counts - a lower road toll.
yeah I expect the Easter Road Death Toll should be the lowest in decades...
As people have been saying, the actual toll on peoples wellbeing will linger for a long time after we return to whatever our new normal will be.
THe true toll of this epidemic and lockdown wont be known for months or years I expect, IMO there is no right way of doing this, maybe we went to L4 too early, maybe we went too late?
For me the border restrictions were a few weeks back and still are now a key component in us eradicating this virus in NZ.
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@JC The money they are spending now is new borrowing so it hasn't taken money away from any other area of spending.
they have also borrowed for the recovery which will see additional infrastructure spending
Finally if people lose jobs and companies go under the economy contracts. The government has taken steps to mitigate both those scenarios. That's supporting the economy surely. But yeah they are running the economy in a way we haven't seen since the early 80's. Hopefully they aren't ruining it as much as Muldoon did.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@JC The money they are spending now is new borrowing so it hasn't taken money away from any other area of spending.
they have also borrowed for the recovery which will see additional infrastructure spending
Finally if people lose jobs and companies go under the economy contracts. The government has taken steps to mitigate both those scenarios. That's supporting the economy surely. But yeah they are running the economy in a way we haven't seen since the early 80's. Hopefully they aren't ruining it as much as Muldoon did.
Have they really though? The wage subsidy wasnt for a lockdown, it was for a slow down. Then they went full nuclear and shut everything down. I havent seen anything significant that will even scratch the surface of the carnage they are unleashing.
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@taniwharugby the main weakness I see in NZ strategy is how to get out of it.
If the virus is eradicated in NZ that’s excellent. But when do you allow international travel again?
Don’t get me wrong - I’d rather be in NZ right now than UK, that’s unquestionable. But I just can’t see how the measures can be unwound. I can see NZ closing borders / locking people down in phases for up to 3 - 5 years. We are equally as vulnerable up here, altho I expect if the antibodies tests come available the results will be eye opening.
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@JC said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Kirwan @Baron-Silas-Greenback - I see no evidence that the government isn't incredibly concerned about the economy. They're spending billions to support it.
I’ve tried to stay well away from this but I couldn’t let this go by unchallenged.
Spending money the way the government is doing is not supporting the economy. It is moving money - that they don’t actually have, by the way - from one part of the economy to another. Every dollar they spend this way is a dollar not spent on something they previously thought was essential. If that was infrastructure, which boosts GDP, then that infrastructure will not now be built.
The way to repair the economy is to let the economy do what it does, finding the most efficient way to allocate the available resources with the intention of increasing their value. That is something that clearly isn’t happening at the moment, because the majority of participants in the economy are banned from working.
However good the intentions of the government are, they aren’t supporting the economy as much as running it.
And this is the bit that really concerns me. One thing politicans have shown (from all parties) is that they shouldn't be running the economy. The farce of them picking what is an essential service underlines that completely.
I also probably have irrational concerns about leaders that use terms like "comrade" unironically getting a taste of running the economy.
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@Godder said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Something else to consider in the death counts - a lower road toll.
Yeah, articles like this make me feel sick to be honest.
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@Kirwan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@Godder said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
Something else to consider in the death counts - a lower road toll.
Yeah, articles like this make me feel sick to be honest.
That and cleaner air and all the rest of the dross around "benefits of lockdown" Personally, I want to get out and about again.
It's a stupid train of thought that the attached article is a benefit. It's not, it's an outcome.