'Super Rugby' 2021
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@KiwiMurph and begs the question how the incompetence of the previous regime was able to hold on so long.
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All these models would actually just be shit or could actually be decent but are too impractical. The best model was what was actually going to happen in 2021 - 4 Saffa teams, 4 Aus, 5 NZ and Jaguares. That gave us a 14 team round robin.
If there are no South African teams next year, keep it simple. Add in the 4 Aussie teams and go from there.
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@taniwharugby said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@KiwiMurph and begs the question how the incompetence of the previous regime was able to hold on so long.
Well, they wanted to reappoint Tana (who I idolised as a rugby player), and were divided over JK. Having seen JK as a pundit, I cannot believe he got anywhere near a head coaching role. Legend, hell of a top bloke, but no analysis skills that I've seen displayed ever.
But yeah, it took a while but the board changes of a few years ago have led to a massive step up in the back office, and that flows through to the team and players.
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@Rapido said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I'm not interested in international club/franchise rugby.
Unfortunately we may still be lumped with Australia if the trans-tasman bubble comes into being, so no incentive to totally sever the Super Rugby ties/model.
I love the NPC, but don't think it should become the future professional model as its charm was that it was representative rugby. Apart from being unaffordable, professional sport needs to be club/based rather the representative team based. And the amateur representative unions should be shielded from the dangers of prefessionalism and left to do what they should do - reward the 15 best club players in the province with rep rugby, plus youth, womens rugby etc.
I would love to see a professional domestic competition based on 'franchises' which are based on old provincial lines. With ownership by the provinces as well as by fan membership. Something like a hybrid of the original Super 12 along with the AFL membership system, or the Bundesliga 50+1 ownership model (minimum 50+1 % ownership by members).
And below this, an amateur NPC still exists, and amateur club rugby.
Each 'franchise' needs a minimum of 2 NPC provinces (to seperate their identity from princes).
Ownership is by the amatuer unions, plus members - to give ownership and buy in from community. But these are not for profit structures.So I would end up splitting some of the existing provinces, and combining some of the others. Getting a preferably 32 team amateur competition (2 divisions of 16 with: 2 pools of 8, or 4 pools of 4 - so amateurs play as a cheap cheery on top at the end of the club season)
So, in my dreams. Something like this:
11 team Domestic Professional League- North Auckland (Amateur unions: Northland, North Harbour)
- Auckland (Amateur unions: Auckland Isthmus, Waitakere)
- Counties Manukau (Amateur unions: Manukau, Franklin)
- Waikato (Amateur unions: Hamilton, Thames Valley, King Country)
- BOP (Amateur unions: Coastline, BOP Lakes)
- Eastlands (Amateur unions: Hawkes Bay, Wairarapa, East Cape)
- LNI (Amateur unions: (Taranaki, Wanganui, Manawatu)
- Wellington (Amateur unions: Wellington, Ho-Kap)
- Ta$man (Amateur unions: (Westland, Nelson Bays, Marlborough)
- Canterbury (Amateur unions: Christchurch, South Canterbury, Mid Canterbury, North Canterbury)
- Otago (Amateur unions: Dunedin, Otago Country, Southland, North Otago)
Wow, impressive but absolutely fantasy. I was hoping to discuss ideas that have more than a 0.0000008% chance of coming to fruition.
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@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
For 2021, I think start with an ANZ tournament. Less likely to be disrupted by travel and pandemic issues, so there's more certainty that the competition will be completed.
Either 5 NZ & 3 Oz teams, or perhaps 6 & 4. Too many Oz teams just means they get stomped, which I enjoy but probably isn't conducive to garnering a following in Oz given their love of winners.
Double round robin, home and away, semis and a final. If the playoffs need to be bigger in a 10 team competition, go top 5, with the old league system.
Where does the money come from to pay the players with this model? Without the African TV money, we need something to fill the breach.
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@gt12 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
To add to this, if we went down this road, I'd allow kiwi players to play for any Super rugby team and be available for the ABs. We'd have big names go to Japan, where they would earn serious coin, and suddenly the JP sides would be very strong. We could easily have the best product then too, and fuck up the NH by keeping the best players around, plus extend the number of players available for the ABs.
Yep, what I said but in a little more detail. And more motivation for Japan to make it work.
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@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
For 2021, I think start with an ANZ tournament. Less likely to be disrupted by travel and pandemic issues, so there's more certainty that the competition will be completed.
Either 5 NZ & 3 Oz teams, or perhaps 6 & 4. Too many Oz teams just means they get stomped, which I enjoy but probably isn't conducive to garnering a following in Oz given their love of winners.
Double round robin, home and away, semis and a final. If the playoffs need to be bigger in a 10 team competition, go top 5, with the old league system.
Where does the money come from to pay the players with this model? Without the African TV money, we need something to fill the breach.
If only there were a country, newly interested in Rugby, with a similar timezone to ours and a massive population. That sure would be helpful to save us travelling to South Africa
also, SA ain't going north. Their season's don't match up, and I don't think they have enough money to extend the longest trip from Italy to SA. NZ/Japan may have a better chance of finding a compromise on seasons.
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I agree with @shark that the whole key to making it all work is Japan. I love the idea of expanding AB eligibility for any Super side in a "Pacific Rim" competition withe South Africa focused up in Europe.
The Saffers are already one foot in one foot out with some of their provincial teams playing in Europe, given the world is increasingly divided up along TV market lines where time zones matter more than hemispheres I reckon we let them go.
5 NZ teams, 4 Aussie, 4 Japanese, 2 Argie, 1 Pacific Island (home games in Auckland/Sydney, but preseason matches in the Islands) = 16 teams. 16 week round robin (everyone gets a bye week), straight top 4 SF then final, all done in 18 weeks. Travel tough but doable given no SA involvement. Scope to include US/Canada teams further down the track.
None of this home/away rubbish that bloats the schedule, to then try and pare it back with a conference system. The 6 Nations alternates home and away every year and the luck of the draw plays a big part and people live with that. We can too.
Key to making it work is integrating with the Japanese club system. Tough but should be possible, they should be massively keen to grow the game after the world cup there and the great strides the national team has made.
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@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
For 2021, I think start with an ANZ tournament. Less likely to be disrupted by travel and pandemic issues, so there's more certainty that the competition will be completed.
Either 5 NZ & 3 Oz teams, or perhaps 6 & 4. Too many Oz teams just means they get stomped, which I enjoy but probably isn't conducive to garnering a following in Oz given their love of winners.
Double round robin, home and away, semis and a final. If the playoffs need to be bigger in a 10 team competition, go top 5, with the old league system.
Where does the money come from to pay the players with this model? Without the African TV money, we need something to fill the breach.
TV rights and probably a pared back cost structure for everyone.
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@TeWaio said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I agree with @shark that the whole key to making it all work is Japan
I'm fairly convinced that Japan is the key to financial security for NZ and the other Pacific Island unions. The timing is perfect to build on their RWC success.
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Genuine question - why would this competition automatically include Australia as a partner?
If they cannot bring a big dollar TV contract or 2000-era level crowds I am not sure why we would want to be tethered to the hip with them and enter into a formal partnership with them and be exposed to their infighting. If Wales exited the Pro 14 the answer wouldn't be adding a bunch more Italian teams and a strategic alignment between Italy and Ireland.
I am not against having Australian teams in an expanded competition but they enter on the basis to the Warriors in the NRL, Breakers in the NBL or proposed NZ Big Bash teams.
Japan is a different story as they can bring $$$ (in-lieu of a yen sign on my keyboard).
If the Boks go from SAANZAR then it is probably in our best interests to peruse a wholly independent model of setting test fixtures and to a large extent auction them off to the highest bidder rather than play a goofy 3N with an ailing Australia and Argentina with 50% YoY inflation.
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@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
For 2021, I think start with an ANZ tournament. Less likely to be disrupted by travel and pandemic issues, so there's more certainty that the competition will be completed.
Either 5 NZ & 3 Oz teams, or perhaps 6 & 4. Too many Oz teams just means they get stomped, which I enjoy but probably isn't conducive to garnering a following in Oz given their love of winners.
Double round robin, home and away, semis and a final. If the playoffs need to be bigger in a 10 team competition, go top 5, with the old league system.
Where does the money come from to pay the players with this model? Without the African TV money, we need something to fill the breach.
TV rights and probably a pared back cost structure for everyone.
Without SA, or Japan, the TV rights money is peanuts.
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@TeWaio said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I agree with @shark that the whole key to making it all work is Japan
I'm fairly convinced that Japan is the key to financial security for NZ and the other Pacific Island unions. The timing is perfect to build on their RWC success.
Are flights to Japan likely in the near future?
The flight times to Tokyo and BA are similar so no reason not to include the Jaguares in any future competition if a long haul flight is required.
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I don't think there's any point in discussing the Jaguares not being involved in any future SR comp. It's just not realistic.
I DO think there's a lot of merit in Rapido's call re jerseys though. SA not being involved gets rid of several of the abominations for a start including camo, superhero cos-play and whatever the fuck that yellow thing was the Bulls changed into at HT in the infamous jersey clash game this year. Then I'd make a rule that adidas couldn't distort playing strips for the sake of marketing gimmickery like they did this year, but they can make training strips as outlandish as they like.
Teams would have a home strip, and an away strip in inverted colours or a different colour scheme using other provincial sides' colours in the franchise boundaries. That goes for ALL teams. I'd ban shit like tartan, volcanos and chain mail from the regular NZ jerseys, but each team could have the equivalent of an NBA-style 'City Edition' jersey which may not be in franchise colours but would still be representative of the region. This would only be worn once or twice a season, and would need to be entirely distinctive from other sides' jerseys.
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@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
For 2021, I think start with an ANZ tournament. Less likely to be disrupted by travel and pandemic issues, so there's more certainty that the competition will be completed.
Either 5 NZ & 3 Oz teams, or perhaps 6 & 4. Too many Oz teams just means they get stomped, which I enjoy but probably isn't conducive to garnering a following in Oz given their love of winners.
Double round robin, home and away, semis and a final. If the playoffs need to be bigger in a 10 team competition, go top 5, with the old league system.
Where does the money come from to pay the players with this model? Without the African TV money, we need something to fill the breach.
TV rights and probably a pared back cost structure for everyone.
Without SA, or Japan, the TV rights money is peanuts.
Can we have some proof of that? I cannot find the amount of the SA deal, NZR newest from sky has been guessed at. But nothing from SA. I'm not sure that they still bring in the biggest amount. The SA economy is fucked, maybe they used too, but it's it still the case?
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@Machpants The SR viewership numbers for SuperSport will be greater than that of Sky and Fox Sports so I believe they still have the biggest slice of the broadcasting pie within SANZAAR.
It is hard to find any current information. This link might have some info but you need to subscribe.
SuperSport close to Sanzaar, Saru rugby renewals in South Africa
South African pay-television broadcaster Supersport is finalising deals to renew its rights for Sanzaar and South African Rugby Union properties for the 2021-25 cycle, SportBusiness Media understands.
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@Bovidae @Machpants I vaguely recall seeing somethign a couple of years back that indicated the SA numbers were not as big as oft stated, but were still the biggest of the 3. NZ numbers were higher than many thought they'd be IIRC
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@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Godder said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
For 2021, I think start with an ANZ tournament. Less likely to be disrupted by travel and pandemic issues, so there's more certainty that the competition will be completed.
Either 5 NZ & 3 Oz teams, or perhaps 6 & 4. Too many Oz teams just means they get stomped, which I enjoy but probably isn't conducive to garnering a following in Oz given their love of winners.
Double round robin, home and away, semis and a final. If the playoffs need to be bigger in a 10 team competition, go top 5, with the old league system.
Where does the money come from to pay the players with this model? Without the African TV money, we need something to fill the breach.
TV rights and probably a pared back cost structure for everyone.
Without SA, or Japan, the TV rights money is peanuts.
Unconfirmed estimate of $400 million over 5 years - seems enough to make it worthwhile setting something up sooner rather than later, and if that's a Australasian competition to start with, so be it.
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