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@voodoo said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@canefan if he meant the unlawful looters when he said " shooting starts" then that's a reasonable argument right there.
You don't really believe this do you? Based solely on my reading of your other posts over time,I can't believe you do
That's my whole gist mate. Our projections have no bearing on what he meant, and if he meant looters shooting or army shooting then whatever our appraisals, never had any sway in the situation.
We've got interpretations only. Worthless really.And it's 100% true that looting brings gunshots, it already has.
Anti trump people never refer to the situation he's describing. Always it's an ethical complaint as if some utopian conditions exist.
Never any criticisms of the root cause of his reactions.How do you stop such a destructive mob without force? And force in the 21st century involves guns.
These rioters are not rational protesters trying to change society. They've totally wrecked innocent people's property and, in the United States, if you engage in that behaviour you'll be met with force. It's always been that way.Trump might be offensive, but at least he's realistic.
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@barbarian said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@canefan if he meant the unlawful looters when he said " shooting starts" then that's a reasonable argument right there.
How is it reasonable to suggest looters will be shot? In what country is that an acceptable response to a criminal but non-violent act? If he said looters will be locked up, sure. But instead his poor choice of words causes makes a delicate situation worse.
The fact is America is a deeply divided nation. Protesters taking over a police station and setting fire to buildings in a major city isn't a normal thing. Trump is not the cause of these actions, or this general situation. But at the same time you can't point to much he's doing to make things better.
I worry for the future of that nation.
Then the shooting starts is not the same as suggesting looters will be shot. It's pedantic but no less true.
They aren't protesters and they weren't reflecting a divided nation but one which has severe socio-economic disparities and social conditions that manifest in these incidents. Very similar to the London riots where politics were also not the main driver of the behaviour.And no his words haven't made the situation worse. His words haven't burned more businesses down, they haven't smashed more windows, they haven't stole more Target stock, they haven't ruined the New bar owner's dream. Disingenuous to gloss over what that city has been through and focus on trumps poor tweet. No focus on why the city wouldn't defend it's citizens from rioters?
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@Siam said in US Politics:
Then the shooting starts is not the same as suggesting looters will be shot. It's pedantic but no less true.
This is the opposite of TDS here I think. TES - Trump explanation syndrome? You're turning yourself in knots to defend this. The clear imputation behind 'when the looting starts, the shooting starts' is that looters will be shot.
And the rest of your post is more of the same. There are plenty of factors in this, nobody is suggesting Trump is responsible, or the worst person in this saga. But we can talk about his tweet because he's the President and everything he does at this point is worthy of discussion. And once again in a moment of national importance I'd argue he hasn't covered himself in glory.
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@barbarian said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
Then the shooting starts is not the same as suggesting looters will be shot. It's pedantic but no less true.
This is the opposite of TDS here I think. TES - Trump explanation syndrome? You're turning yourself in knots to defend this. The clear imputation behind 'when the looting starts, the shooting starts' is that looters will be shot.
And the rest of your post is more of the same. There are plenty of factors in this, nobody is suggesting Trump is responsible, or the worst person in this saga. But we can talk about his tweet because he's the President and everything he does at this point is worthy of discussion. And once again in a moment of national importance I'd argue he hasn't covered himself in glory.
The mere fact he fucken tweeted. What was the point? Hilarious that if you criticise you're just a Trump hater eh. TDS indeed. So much ironing.
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@Frank so he died of Covid?
The looting is fucked, yes be pissed and angry about the cops and what happened, but how is civil unrest and looting helping anything?
It harms so much more of the community and peoples lives.
Who picks up the bill? The state? Cos I am pretty sure insurers exclude rioting/civil unrest much like they exclude war, nuclear explosion aaaand pandemics...way to further dig a hole in the economy reeling from Covid...
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@taniwharugby said in US Politics:
@Frank so he died of Covid?
The looting is fucked, yes be pissed and angry about the cops and what happened, but how is civil unrest and looting helping anything?
It harms so much more of the community and peoples lives.
Who picks up the bill? The state? Cos I am pretty sure insurers exclude rioting/civil unrest much like they exclude war, nuclear explosion aaaand pandemics...way to further dig a hole in the economy reeling from Covid...
There was initially a peaceful protest, and those protesting were urging against violence. But then some thugs turned up, a few shop windows were smashed, and shit kicked off big time.
It's all linked, and there's a fair bit of anger behind the rioting, but there is a distinction between the protesters and the opportunistic thugs that decided to rob stores and burn shit down.
I'd also add that many of the rioters were not black, and in fact it looks like some of the fires were started by white people dressed in black (Antifa have a history of this sort of behaviour).
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
The bit that confuses me in this Floyd situation is why the cop wasn't arrested 'on suspicion' while they assembled evidence and a case.
Is that not part of the US justice system? It seems to cause a lot of problems and perspectives of inaction when they have to create a whole case with a high level of proof before acting.
I guess that in our system we can prove a prima facie case at a lower burden of proof, then progress from there (I think)To add some context, there were a couple of events that led into this:
- A white father and his adult son jumped in their truck and chased down what they believed to be a "suspicious" looking black man. They shot him in cold blood, and no arrests were even made for months until video footage surfaced online and there was a public outcry.
- A woman in a park in NY took her dog off a leash (against park rules). A bird watcher who was black asked her to put it back on the leash, she got hysterical and said she would call the cops to say an "African-American" man was harassing her (with an emphasis on his race). She then did just that, attempting to invoke racial stereotypes against black men in the hope the cops would come and deal to him.
Then this video came out and I think people have just said enough is enough given once again no arrests had been made.
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
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@barbarian good reply mate. Fair dues.
May I add that in my heart of hearts I definitely want would be looters to be afraid of being shot. In any country. I want that to be a very real consideration as they decide whether or not to loot.
That might be our point of difference.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
The bit that confuses me in this Floyd situation is why the cop wasn't arrested 'on suspicion' while they assembled evidence and a case.
Is that not part of the US justice system? It seems to cause a lot of problems and perspectives of inaction when they have to create a whole case with a high level of proof before acting.
I guess that in our system we can prove a prima facie case at a lower burden of proof, then progress from there (I think)To add some context, there were a couple of events that led into this:
- A white father and his adult son jumped in their truck and chased down what they believed to be a "suspicious" looking black man. They shot him in cold blood, and no arrests were even made for months until video footage surfaced online and there was a public outcry.
- A woman in a park in NY took her dog off a leash (against park rules). A bird watcher who was black asked her to put it back on the leash, she got hysterical and said she would call the cops to say an "African-American" man was harassing her (with an emphasis on his race). She then did just that, attempting to invoke racial stereotypes against black men in the hope the cops would come and deal to him.
Then this video came out and I think people have just said enough is enough given once again no arrests had been made.
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
The women lost her job and was rounded criticized. I doubt if this had any impact except maybe for mostly out of town thugs looking for any excuse to smash a place up
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
This is where we need stats and data. I've heard Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell and others refute this generalisation and the stats they cite plus their conviction on the matter paints a different picture from the accepted stereotypes
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@No-Quarter Every one of these unjustified deaths is like Rodney King all over again. Added to underlying tensions that exist in the US and every once in a while things erupt to the surface
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
This is where we need stats and data. I've heard Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell and others refute this generalisation and the stats they cite plus their conviction on the matter paints a different picture from the accepted stereotypes
This article cites studies that would suggest black men are 2.5x more likely to be killed by police than whites. I have no idea who citylab are or who wrote these published studies. Brings up interesting issues when considering the data. Main one when considering police brutality cases was whether or not the person was unarmed
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
This is where we need stats and data. I've heard Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell and others refute this generalisation and the stats they cite plus their conviction on the matter paints a different picture from the accepted stereotypes
The stats back this up. From memory 27% of people killed by police are black, despite making up 13% of the population. They are over represented.
There's some important discussion they need to have on why that is, and granted racism doesn't tell the whole story, but it does play an important role. And when you take into account the countries awful history with race relations, it's little wonder incidents like this have such a big impact.
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@Winger said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Crucial said in US Politics:
The bit that confuses me in this Floyd situation is why the cop wasn't arrested 'on suspicion' while they assembled evidence and a case.
Is that not part of the US justice system? It seems to cause a lot of problems and perspectives of inaction when they have to create a whole case with a high level of proof before acting.
I guess that in our system we can prove a prima facie case at a lower burden of proof, then progress from there (I think)To add some context, there were a couple of events that led into this:
- A white father and his adult son jumped in their truck and chased down what they believed to be a "suspicious" looking black man. They shot him in cold blood, and no arrests were even made for months until video footage surfaced online and there was a public outcry.
- A woman in a park in NY took her dog off a leash (against park rules). A bird watcher who was black asked her to put it back on the leash, she got hysterical and said she would call the cops to say an "African-American" man was harassing her (with an emphasis on his race). She then did just that, attempting to invoke racial stereotypes against black men in the hope the cops would come and deal to him.
Then this video came out and I think people have just said enough is enough given once again no arrests had been made.
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
The women lost her job and was rounded criticized. I doubt if this had any impact except maybe for mostly out of town thugs looking for any excuse to smash a place up
I think her threatening police brutality on an innocent black man right before a video surfaced of exactly that played a role.
I agree she really copped it. The condemnation of this latest killing has been widespread as well. Most people are sick of this shit and cannot believe it is still happening in their country.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
This is where we need stats and data. I've heard Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell and others refute this generalisation and the stats they cite plus their conviction on the matter paints a different picture from the accepted stereotypes
The stats back this up. From memory 27% of people killed by police are black, despite making up 13% of the population. They are over represented.
There's some important discussion they need to have on why that is, and granted racism doesn't tell the whole story, but it does play an important role. And when you take into account the countries awful history with race relations, it's little wonder incidents like this have such a big impact.
This stuff happens a lot. Anyone remember the Michael Bennett incident?
He had an officer stick his knee in his back making it hard to breathe. Sound familiar?
It all adds up to a general distrust of the police amongst the black community
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
The States has a big problem with police brutality, and black men are massively over represented as being on the receiving end of it.
This is where we need stats and data. I've heard Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell and others refute this generalisation and the stats they cite plus their conviction on the matter paints a different picture from the accepted stereotypes
The stats back this up. From memory 27% of people killed by police are black, despite making up 13% of the population. They are over represented.
There's some important discussion they need to have on why that is, and granted racism doesn't tell the whole story, but it does play an important role. And when you take into account the countries awful history with race relations, it's little wonder incidents like this have such a big impact.
Wait. What? 73% of people killed by police are not black??
Who are those poor buggers and why don't their lives matter?🤔I appreciate the over represented black people per capita bit, every country has one of those but the black community is also massively overrepresented in homicides. Nobody kills more black men in America than other black men. Police shoot more white people than black each year and police officers report heightened concern when dealing with a dangerous black man because of the inevitable backlash to follow.
Stats based on raw population numbers don't detail the specifics of criminal communities and their circumstances. Who dominates the criminal space and why.There's a lot of killing going on and the cops aren't doing most of it at all.
No way is that kneeling fuckwit anywhere near the norm for US cop behaviour, I hope.
Or, maybe the cops stink. Not necessarily a racial thing - Justine Ruszczyk also lived in Minneapolis 😒
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@canefan they do mate. Or perhaps they seem to. I'm conscious of some bias at play where the news saturation gives an exaggerated notion of frequency.
Most things in the US are too large to coherently imagine and when I think of the volume of police interactions every day all through the states I'm sceptical of the significance of these individual cases representing a norm.
The cop killing crisis plays out better on tv than on the data of all police incidents, I wonder.
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