Black Lives Matter
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Frank You missed this bit : "officials said"
after officials said he resisted arrest and stole an officer's Taser.
@Frank said in US Politics:
please include all context.
The officials are whom I wonder?
Watch the video and listen.
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@Frank said in US Politics:
What an awesome dude.
Have you read any of his books? I'm looking for a recommendation, have watched a few interviews in the last couple years and read 'basic economics' last year which I thought was very eye opening. Just trying to choose the next one to read.
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Contrast this experience with something I witnessed first hand. Week one of lockdown a polynesian guy was caught by the cops driving near our house at 2 in the morning. He stopped his car and took off on foot, chased by the eagle helicopter and a couple of officers. The guy ran onto the reserve behind our house and ended up hiding on a low part of our roof. He was tracked by two officers and a dog. After a tense verbal exchange the guy was coaxed off the roof and grabbed by the dog before being taken away. If I lived in Atlanta I don't think the police would have been that patient with him, he would have ended up shot just like that guy sleeping in his car
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
Watch the video and listen.
I did. So the police handcuffed a guy and shot him in the back. My cynicism was about the word "officials".
So is resisting arrest an instant capital punishment? It appears so these days.
It would be interesting to see what police procedure is on that. The majority of these cases are related to resisting arrest. Maybe that's change that could be brought in, if someone is resisting arrest to the point where it is becoming dangerous to themselves but not an immediate danger to police or public maybe let them go, call backup and follow the suspect. Or would that just lead to more people resisting arrest and increased police fatalities?
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
Watch the video and listen.
I did. So the police handcuffed a guy and shot him in the back. My cynicism was about the word "officials".
So is resisting arrest an instant capital punishment? It appears so these days.
It would be interesting to see what police procedure is on that. The majority of these cases are related to resisting arrest. Maybe that's change that could be brought in, if someone is resisting arrest to the point where it is becoming dangerous to themselves but not an immediate danger to police or public maybe let them go, call backup and follow the suspect. Or would that just lead to more people resisting arrest and increased police fatalities?
If the officers are in no immediate danger I think there is no way they can shoot. He was running away from them, he wasn't on a rampage. Call for backup and chase the guy on foot
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@Rembrandt When everybody is armed it is obviously more difficult. I've never tried it but shooting someone with you hands behind your back must be a bit tricky.
Basically agree with you but you just remove the guns and it becomes more like @canefan home situation above.
Edit and the post after from him.
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@canefan said in US Politics:
If the officers are in no immediate danger I think there is no way they can shoot. He was running away from them, he wasn't on a rampage. Call for backup and chase the guy on foot
I'm likely wrong but isn't that policy in New Zealand during a high speed chase? If its getting too dangerous to pursue then they leave it.
I don't know how that would go from a litigious point of view if the suspect then moved on to attack a member of the public after the police failed to enact an arrest. Would actually be really interesting to see what their procedures are..no doubt the worlds top quality media agencies will be on the case and will help inform the general public rather than try and throw as much gasoline on the fire as possible.
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
If the officers are in no immediate danger I think there is no way they can shoot. He was running away from them, he wasn't on a rampage. Call for backup and chase the guy on foot
I'm likely wrong but isn't that policy in New Zealand during a high speed chase? If its getting too dangerous to pursue then they leave it.
I don't know how that would go from a litigious point of view if the suspect then moved on to attack a member of the public after the police failed to enact an arrest. Would actually be really interesting to see what their procedures are..no doubt the worlds top quality media agencies will be on the case and will help inform the general public rather than try and throw as much gasoline on the fire as possible.
The car chase one is a no win, if they speed and kill someone or they speed and kill themselves. After talking to this dude for 25 minutes I think it was clear he wasn't a serious criminal. There is no justification to shoot this guy in the back when he was running away, taser or no taser
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
If the officers are in no immediate danger I think there is no way they can shoot. He was running away from them, he wasn't on a rampage. Call for backup and chase the guy on foot
I'm likely wrong but isn't that policy in New Zealand during a high speed chase? If its getting too dangerous to pursue then they leave it.
I don't know how that would go from a litigious point of view if the suspect then moved on to attack a member of the public after the police failed to enact an arrest. Would actually be really interesting to see what their procedures are..no doubt the worlds top quality media agencies will be on the case and will help inform the general public rather than try and throw as much gasoline on the fire as possible.
The car chase one is a no win, if they speed and kill someone or they speed and kill themselves. After talking to this dude for 25 minutes I think it was clear he wasn't a serious criminal. There is no justification to shoot this guy in the back when he was running away, taser or no taser
I agree based on the info that is in currently. Did both police bodycams fall off? Being at a Wendy's (that I see has now been burnt to the ground) Id imagine there might yet be some more video footage to come out.
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
I'm likely wrong but isn't that policy in New Zealand during a high speed chase? If its getting too dangerous to pursue then they leave it.
Debatable whether they do:
International pursuit-related research reports have been important to establish whether
all safety factors have been considered in the New Zealand policy. However, much of
the research is American based, and care must be taken in drawing comparisons with
New Zealand, as issues such as differences in our roading network, the American
proclivity for litigation against both organisations and private individuals, the policing
environment and operational context is markedly different. It is also important to
remember that often the research does not take into account the "increased risk to the
public if pursuits are discontinued and either serious criminals are allowed to escape or
drunk drivers are not intercepted or arrested."5There are 66 pages of that report which are sort of relevant given the number of chases we seem to have. In the US they could just shoot you of course.
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I would think the only justification for using deadly force is when there is a serious threat to police or public safety. This latest case doesn't meet either of those, not by a long shot.
I'm amazed at how many (mainly) conservatives I am seeing putting their support behind the police in this one. This is basically state sanctioned violence if you think it is OK for cops to kill people under these circumstances. Weren't all those conservatives against the state having too much power? Doesn't that form the basis of their gun ownership arguments? Why would they be OK with giving police the power to kill people when they see fit?
There just seems to be absolutely no duty of care from the police over there.
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@Winger said in US Politics:
But the question is what is this something "far larger". Is it real?
Yes. The widespread nature of protests clearly indicated this has tapped into something deep-seated and powerful.
You can debate how we came to be here and why, and what the solutions are going forward. But clearly there is very large group of people in the US who still see issues with the treatment of black Americans. That fact can't be denied.
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Another angle, still missing the crucial last couple seconds but it does still look like the police shot him running away. Back to what their procedures are, are they supposed to shoot an unarmed suspect resisting arrest? Does the forumla change if the suspect has assaulted you? Does a stolen taser now make him 'armed and dangerous'?
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If I was the cop I would be tying to convince others that I believed the guy was pointing a hand gun at me rather than a taser. Hard to justify killing someone running away while firing a stolen taser, especially considering the taser cartridge can only be effectively 'fired' once if it misses.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
He turns and fires a taser (that he stole during a struggle with police) at the officer. Actions have consequences.
Yes, but they know it is a taser. He took it from them. It isn't (normally) a deadly instrument. The gun was.
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
He turns and fires a taser (that he stole during a struggle with police) at the officer. Actions have consequences.
Yes, but they know it is a taser. He took it from them. It isn't (normally) a deadly instrument. The gun was.
Tasers have killed over a thousand people in the USA since their introduction. They're a "less-lethal alternative".