Black Lives Matter
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I would think the only justification for using deadly force is when there is a serious threat to police or public safety. This latest case doesn't meet either of those, not by a long shot.
I'm amazed at how many (mainly) conservatives I am seeing putting their support behind the police in this one. This is basically state sanctioned violence if you think it is OK for cops to kill people under these circumstances. Weren't all those conservatives against the state having too much power? Doesn't that form the basis of their gun ownership arguments? Why would they be OK with giving police the power to kill people when they see fit?
There just seems to be absolutely no duty of care from the police over there.
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@Winger said in US Politics:
But the question is what is this something "far larger". Is it real?
Yes. The widespread nature of protests clearly indicated this has tapped into something deep-seated and powerful.
You can debate how we came to be here and why, and what the solutions are going forward. But clearly there is very large group of people in the US who still see issues with the treatment of black Americans. That fact can't be denied.
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Another angle, still missing the crucial last couple seconds but it does still look like the police shot him running away. Back to what their procedures are, are they supposed to shoot an unarmed suspect resisting arrest? Does the forumla change if the suspect has assaulted you? Does a stolen taser now make him 'armed and dangerous'?
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If I was the cop I would be tying to convince others that I believed the guy was pointing a hand gun at me rather than a taser. Hard to justify killing someone running away while firing a stolen taser, especially considering the taser cartridge can only be effectively 'fired' once if it misses.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
He turns and fires a taser (that he stole during a struggle with police) at the officer. Actions have consequences.
Yes, but they know it is a taser. He took it from them. It isn't (normally) a deadly instrument. The gun was.
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
He turns and fires a taser (that he stole during a struggle with police) at the officer. Actions have consequences.
Yes, but they know it is a taser. He took it from them. It isn't (normally) a deadly instrument. The gun was.
Tasers have killed over a thousand people in the USA since their introduction. They're a "less-lethal alternative".
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@antipodean Yep, hence the "(normally)"
A study led by William Bozeman of Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center of nearly 1,000 persons subjected to Taser use concluded that 99.7% of the subjects had suffered no injuries, or minor ones such as scrapes and bruises, while three persons suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission, and two died.
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Yep sorry, Im with the police now. Resisting arrest is one thing. Punching an officer another. Stealing a taser and then pointing it at the officer really is a final straw. Its sad because this guy was drunk and clearly not thinking through his actions but that does not mean a police officer should just 'take a hit' and hope for the best.
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You guys think the police should not be expected to apprehend a drunk suspect armed with just a taser without killing him?
I have to say I don't agree. He was not a threat at all, and I think this points to very poor training of the police force in the States in how to deal with situations like this without using deadly force.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
You guys think the police should not be expected to apprehend a drunk suspect armed with just a taser without killing him?
I have to say I don't agree. He was not a threat at all, and I think this points to very poor training of the police force in the States in how to deal with situations like this without using deadly force.
You say that like they rolled up to the drive-thru to find their path blocked by him and in frustration shot him.
It was the last action available to the police officer when Rayshard turned around with the weapon and discharged it at them. He had decided he wasn't going to be lawfully apprehended and took every available means to prevent it.
It's entirely possible to side with the police on this and with George Floyd in the other.
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@antipodean do you think he was a threat to public safety, that they had to use deadly force to stop him getting away?
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean do you think he was a threat to public safety, that they had to use deadly force to stop him getting away?
I don't think he was shot to prevent him getting away, but because of his decision to turn and fire a weapon at the police.
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Split second decision to drop the suspect who was firing a weapon on a police officer. I don't know which officer fired either in protection of themselves or a partner but I am comfortable with that decision made. It would be a different story had there been a decent lag between the taser being fired at the officer and the fatal shots but it was all within a couple seconds. It really is sad but the police should not be held liable over this.
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Looks like a maximum 3 seconds from when the suspect aimed at the officer and when he hit the ground after being shot. Taking into account lag of shooting to recognising you are hit maybe we are looking at 2 seconds for the police to react. That is not a lot of time to weigh your decisions in a high stress environment.
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Looks like a maximum 3 seconds from when the suspect aimed at the officer and when he hit the ground after being shot. Taking into account lag of shooting to recognising you are hit maybe we are looking at 2 seconds for the police to react. That is not a lot of time to weigh your decisions in a high stress environment.
They were talking to him for 25 minutes. They knew he didn't have a gun. I know what you guys are saying and it is easy for an armchair spectator like me to judge. But in real life can anyone with gun experience tell me how hard it is to shoot and hit someone with a taser while running away from that target?
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It depends on the rules of engagement the police have.
What are the actual rules for use of deadly force?
Are those rules black and white - or is there discretion?This is an increasingly combustible situation.
Police will be increasingly scared to police that gray area for fear of being prosecuted.
Criminals will know this and it will embolden them.I think we will see mass resignations from police on the street.
They are targets now. -
@Crazy-Horse I don't want to put you on the spot so feel free to ignore but I'd be curious as to your take on this in light of the most recent footage. @canefan is right most of us don't really have a clue about this situation, the closest I come is playing shooting games against teenagers in VR and those damn kids clearly have faster processors than this old warhorse.
Really a horrible time to be police right now.