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@raznomore said in Coronavirus - Australia:
This denying civil liberties thing is a slippery slope, I'll admit. But it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If there is no coloration between night time activities and increased virus cases then it's totalitarian governing. If a curfew somehow slows the rate of infection the public will ask why this was not something that ws implemented sooner.
Do people who have an issue with the curfew, actually really have an issue with a curfew. Are you needing to out and about on cold VIC nights or just wanting to be should the want arise? Or is it a principles thing?
I have an issue with any decision impacting on freedom in a Western liberal democracy that isn't evidence based, grandfathered, sunset applied and a compelling argument made in support of the decisions.
I'm working on a project of some national importance and yet our ability to do an element of work is now impacted because there's a curfew from 8pm that we're busy trying to get clarity on by people who can't come to a clear decision (or are too scared to).
At this point so long as it's not extermination or abject subjugation shouldn't we just see where this goes?
No certainly not.
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@antipodean Andrews did say there was an exception to the curfew for work
"A curfew on people leaving their homes will apply from 8:00pm to 5:00am each night, with exceptions for work or medical care and caregiving."
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The same Andrews that assured everyone Victoria was managing it all fine? That playing golf was part of the problem?
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@antipodean come on, theres a difference between the subjective opinion of how it being handled
and the definitive list of rules and exemptions
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@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean come on, theres a difference between the subjective opinion of how it being handled
and the definitive list of rules and exemptions
Such as the thousand dollar fine for going for a drive with your daughter to practise her driving skills?
Perhaps it escapes you, but how one moron interprets what a politician says and another can have an enormous impact. These statements have the force of law and aren't even debated - they come under the purview of legislation giving an unelected official the ability to make wide ranging determinations.
Will there be a list of essential workers?
The Victorian Premier says more announcements will be made this week about a permit system for the purposes of enforcement. "We don't want to be putting people into that really challenging situation where they have to explain themselves even they don't really need to. "That's going to be a simple, common-sense process, and we'll have more to say about that soon. "As it is now, the curfew obviously does apply — 8:00pm to 5:00am every day. In giving care, getting care or going to and from work, or being at work — they're the only reasons to be out. "Police will be stopping you. They will be asking those questions. They'll do it respectfully. And they'll be very fair in these early days in that they'll probably err on the side of — you know, it is early. "But the time will come when that gets turned off. And anyone who stops and doesn't have a lawful reason will get fined."
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@antipodean im not sure what you're actually trying to say
my work is running with the rules as described, you want to read more into it that's up to you, i was just trying to point something out you may have missed
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That it's not clear and my workers have to travel more than 5km to do their work. They don't have an office when I'm sending them to sites.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@raznomore said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Do people who have an issue with the curfew, actually really have an issue with a curfew. Are you needing to out and about on cold VIC nights or just wanting to be should the want arise? Or is it a principles thing?
It's a principles thing for me. I don't want to sound too extreme, but if Government is going to impose such a harsh restriction I want to see the evidence that it's going to bloody well help out.
A curfew likely wouldn't affect me in the slightest, but I'd like to know I could duck to the shops and pick up a packet of Tim Tams for dessert, or go for a late run if I haven't had a chance to exercise that day.
I'm not particularly against the NZ solution, but you guys didn't have a curfew, did you?
A curfew potentially worsens the situation rather than improves it. People have to be home by 8pm so supermarkets close at 7:30. Supermarkets close at 7:30 so people don't go to the supermarket after 6:30. Now everyone that would have been going after 6:30 have been condensed in with the rest.
The curfew finishing at 5am is also completely arbitrary. What legitimate activities are people going to be doing at the time other than working, going to work or exercising? What would be different if it was 4am? 3am? ... 9pm? 8pm? If everything's closed, then the only people who would be out at that time are the few people doing something legitimate and the rule breakers. It should be relatively easy to identify the rule breakers.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
And I'm not a 'let her rip' guy, but there are only 40 people in ICU at the moment with the virus. I'm unsure of the State's overall ICU capacity, but it would be in the hundreds. People are dying but it's very old people at the rate of about 7 a day.
Now this will obviously get a bit worse, but as it stands Victoria are still a long way from the UK or USA or Italy. And yet they've taken such a heavy approach to the situation. It's important to get on top of the virus, but a curfew is something I can't get on board with given the exact nature of what's happening there.
Really? Population of Melbourne is around 5mill, Victoria as a whole just under 7. Thats around 10% of the UK population. 500 new cases per day is 5000 equivalent, that's not far off the UK peak. Deaths are somewhat stronger, but I feel if I research that anymore I'll dive into a state of depression.
You can argue all you want about draconian rules / laws etc, but I assure you if you don't deal with this thing properly, its' going to fuck Victoria, and other parts of Australia for years. It will widen political divisions, it continue to flick government switches causing panic & the media will continue to plunder every single avenue they can without one fucking iota of care for the wellbeing of the people, and every care for their sales / clicks.
Lockdown. Accept It. Move on. Learn from the UK & the US.
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@Anonymous said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@raznomore said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Do people who have an issue with the curfew, actually really have an issue with a curfew. Are you needing to out and about on cold VIC nights or just wanting to be should the want arise? Or is it a principles thing?
It's a principles thing for me. I don't want to sound too extreme, but if Government is going to impose such a harsh restriction I want to see the evidence that it's going to bloody well help out.
A curfew likely wouldn't affect me in the slightest, but I'd like to know I could duck to the shops and pick up a packet of Tim Tams for dessert, or go for a late run if I haven't had a chance to exercise that day.
I'm not particularly against the NZ solution, but you guys didn't have a curfew, did you?
A curfew potentially worsens the situation rather than improve it. People have to be home by 8pm so supermarkets close at 7:30. Supermarkets close at 7:30 so people don't go to the supermarket after 6:30. Now everyone that would have been going after 6:30 have been condensed in with the rest.
The curfew finishing at 5am is also completely arbitrary. What legitimate activities are people going to be doing at the time other than working, going to work or exercising? What would be different if it was 4am? 3am? ... 9pm? 8pm? If everything's closed, then the only people who would be out at that time are the few people doing something legitimate and the rule breakers. It should be relatively easy to identify the rule breakers.
From the Premier's mouth:
"But the curfew is there for a reason - to protect all of us. You just can't be going out at 9:00 at night to a mate's place."So can I go during the day? No. So why is a curfew necessary?
This is the clarity I'm talking about:
"Police will be stopping you. They will be asking those questions. They'll do it respectfully. And they'll be very fair in these early days in that they'll probably err on the side of — you know, it is early.
versus
"Those choices have got to stop. That activity has got to stop. And Victoria Police, as I've said a few times now — and the fine data backs me up — they are not mucking about. They will continue what has to be done."
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@antipodean sounds like we manage similar works, my guys often travel more than 5km and working on early works infrastructure projects means "site" can be hard to define...we just have different reading of this, they say "work" is an exception, unless we find we're one of the projects "slowing" we'll be working to the letter of the rules as we have all along
I think trying to read meaning and nuance into things like this is what starts confusion, we're just following the bullet points
as for your last two points, maybe listen again, yes he said ultimately the police wont be fucking around...but in the first few days they will be more lenient and give direction where people are confused
good luck to you
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@MajorRage Victoria is in lockdown again because too many people did not do what was required in level 3. My brother in law has watched it all happen and is spewing. Thats what happens when government trust that their people will do the right thing
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when we went into lockdown there was confusion about the what jobs/services that were deemed essential, things mostly got ironed out, but the curfew thing does seem a bit arbitrary.
What they said at the time, for our lockdown to work, they needed something like 80% of people to do what they were being asked, but we werent in the state Victoria is right now, so I expect it will be a harder rood to recovery if they are to get it under control IF you use the NZ lockdown as a measure.
But as I have said since the start, just because it worked here, it wont necessarily work anywhere else, similarly while on the surface our handling seems to have been great, I thnk it is still too early to tell how successful our approach has and will be
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@MajorRage said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
And I'm not a 'let her rip' guy, but there are only 40 people in ICU at the moment with the virus. I'm unsure of the State's overall ICU capacity, but it would be in the hundreds. People are dying but it's very old people at the rate of about 7 a day.
Now this will obviously get a bit worse, but as it stands Victoria are still a long way from the UK or USA or Italy. And yet they've taken such a heavy approach to the situation. It's important to get on top of the virus, but a curfew is something I can't get on board with given the exact nature of what's happening there.
Really? Population of Melbourne is around 5mill, Victoria as a whole just under 7. Thats around 10% of the UK population. 500 new cases per day is 5000 equivalent, that's not far off the UK peak. Deaths are somewhat stronger, but I feel if I research that anymore I'll dive into a state of depression.
You can argue all you want about draconian rules / laws etc, but I assure you if you don't deal with this thing properly, its' going to fuck Victoria, and other parts of Australia for years. It will widen political divisions, it continue to flick government switches causing panic & the media will continue to plunder every single avenue they can without one fucking iota of care for the wellbeing of the people, and every care for their sales / clicks.
Lockdown. Accept It. Move on. Learn from the UK & the US.
I was more talking about deaths and hospital capacity. We are a long way from the Italian scenes of overflowing ICUs, makeshift hospitals etc. Only 40 in ICU at the moment.
And I certainly accept the need for a broad lockdown, and the stakes that we are dealing with here. I think a few elements of this particular lockdown may be counter-productive, especially the curfew.
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian the curfew doesn't make sense. If you have a valid excuse why not be allowed to travel around after hours?
But also some people want to minimise their pandemic risk and do their shopping after hours when the supermarket is quieter. Or exercise after hours when the park is quieter.
Seems weird to force those people into riskier behaviour.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian the curfew doesn't make sense. If you have a valid excuse why not be allowed to travel around after hours?
But also some people want to minimise their pandemic risk and do their shopping after hours when the supermarket is quieter. Or exercise after hours when the park is quieter.
Seems weird to force those people into riskier behaviour.
For sure. When we were in lockdown I preferred to do the supermarket shop at odd times, like 8 or 9pm at night
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@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan although for a period ours started to close earlier and open later to allow staff more time to re-stock shelves.
Yup. I always waited until just before close or first thing to minimise traffic
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@Kiwiwomble said in Coronavirus - Australia:
as for your last two points, maybe listen again, yes he said ultimately the police wont be fucking around...but in the first few days they will be more lenient and give direction where people are confused
Read them again, he's saying two distinct contradictory things.
This from the same people that made a nonsense of what constituted prohibited activities the first time around.
I just hope this debacle ends quickly and with the minimum amount of pain for those of you in Victoria and we can go back to life as normal.
Coronavirus - Australia