What’s out there at Second Five?
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@mariner4life said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@taniwharugby said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@Higgins well if you read some of the comments online (FB) after the team naming, there is a good portion of people who clearly have zero idea.
yes, they are Hurricanes fans. but it's a free country and we can't very well just censor them can we?
Don't need to in Wellington, just stand upwind and you'll never hear them again.
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Havili-best position is 12? He can kick as I recall..
Laumape does not just run into players, he can also run over them, not bad athleticism for a disrespected leprechaun.
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@ploughboy said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@Stargazer and then be third in line after ALB and RI.
funny the fern spent 4 years wanting a settled midfield . know after a handful of games they want to keep changing the combination.
anyway wouldnt mind seeing more of ALB/RI together. RI will be better with another year at center at the blues.Part of the problem is where ALB and JG end up playing in SR. Do you think JG would have been seriously considered at 2nd 5 if he didn't play there all season for the Crusaders? Unlikely I believe. ALB has been more interchangeable at the Chiefs depending on who his midfield partner is.
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I get the argument JB could become a good 12 with more time in the role but the time to learn is not in the ABs. Is he better at 12 than ALB? Are they the most balanced but impactful midfield together in those positions? I don't think so.
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@nostrildamus said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
Havili-best position is 12? He can kick as I recall..
Laumape does not just run into players, he can also run over them, not bad athleticism for a disrespected leprechaun.
Havili started at 12 at the Crusaders - not hugely successfully, but he was just a kid and paired with Fonotia during Toddy Blackadder's spend all the money on 1-10 regime.
He really found his feet when he moved to 15 - but, he's moved back to 12 occasionally when required (and even 10). He's a decent option there.
Currently, he's at best 4th in the fullback queue, so maybe his best chance of being an AB is a shift back to 12.
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15 has to go to a Barrett-it's written in the NZ founding documents.
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@Machpants said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@nzzp Laumape is doing that, he mentions it often. But it takes time and if you are getting the most success with your running game, then you don;t practise it in the heat of battle often. Not sure that he did many, but he put a few through in SRA, mostly good if not excellent. But the fact he can run through the weak shoulder, and around even fast players (ahem the slow blues version of Beuady) means the kick doesn’t come out often. Fat Bishop does enough for both of them
Just because he doesn't kick doesn't mean that can't. I'm sure he practices a lot, but the simple fact is that we have four other guys in the backline who can and should be kicking as the primary options. Whether he can kick or not is kinda moot. He simply shouldn't have to kick (very often at least).
Everyone talks about how Nonu developed a surprisingly decent kicking game, but the truth is that in over 100 tests he probably kicked the ball ~15-20 times. It was useful when it happened, but whether or not he made those kicks would have had zero impact on his standing as an AB great.
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@junior said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@Machpants said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@nzzp Laumape is doing that, he mentions it often. But it takes time and if you are getting the most success with your running game, then you don;t practise it in the heat of battle often. Not sure that he did many, but he put a few through in SRA, mostly good if not excellent. But the fact he can run through the weak shoulder, and around even fast players (ahem the slow blues version of Beuady) means the kick doesn’t come out often. Fat Bishop does enough for both of them
Just because he doesn't kick doesn't mean that can't. I'm sure he practices a lot, but the simple fact is that we have four other guys in the backline who can and should be kicking as the primary options. Whether he can kick or not is kinda moot. He simply shouldn't have to kick (very often at least).
I'm not picking on Ngani here.
What I would say, though, is kickign from multiple backline positions is damn hard to defend. Auckland did it really well in 2018 -- chose the time and space to put the ball to the boot.
I understand the difference between the training pitch kicking and doing it udner pressure. However, I maintain you should be doing it as you never know when you may have to peel one out in a game.
Rayasi, for instance, seems to have a fair old boot on him ... but his core role is running well with the ball in hand. Sure helps the team though
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@nzzp said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
I'm not picking on Ngani here.
Well it certainly looked like you were saying he doesn't try to enhance any of his skills, is lazy and doesn't train...
He had a fantastic SRA and was on fire in the NPC before they dragged him off, showing a range of skills and some very deft touches with the boot.
I get a funny feeling he was given a tight game plan for the ABs and did as he was told.
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I'm not convinced a primarily crash ball merchant is that useful in international rugby. They can all tackle, no matter how big their opponent. What works at Super level isn't what works at test level. If you want to crash in mid-field the get your big wingers to do it.
So I think we can write Jordie Barrett out of that option with Foster. He'd already be doing it from wing if Foster thought a big man going up the middle is what he wanted. Actually, I think it might be a good move for a change -- and better than hoofing it high yet one more time -- but adding a player just to do that is a non-starter.
(And Nonu developed his game while he wasn't an AB. They dropped him as midfielder because all he offered was bash, and only picked him again after he worked on the other parts of his game. Picking a guy and developing him in the position while excluding better players that option is just daft. Why not play ALB and teach him to offload like SBW? Or pick Goodhue and put 10 kgs on him and make him a master crash man? Just saying those things makes them sound stupid. But teaching a guy whose been around years to develop an all-round game is sensible?)
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@Bones said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
I get a funny feeling he was given a tight game plan for the ABs and did as he was told.
hang on, then you are implying the tactics were crap! Say it ain't so!
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@Chester-Draws said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
I'm not convinced a primarily crash ball merchant is that useful in international rugby. They can all tackle, no matter how big their opponent. What works at Super level isn't what works at test level. If you want to crash in mid-field the get your big wingers to do it.
So I think we can write Jordie Barrett out of that option with Foster. He'd already be doing it from wing if Foster thought a big man going up the middle is what he wanted. Actually, I think it might be a good move for a change -- and better than hoofing it high yet one more time -- but adding a player just to do that is a non-starter.
(And Nonu developed his game while he wasn't an AB. They dropped him as midfielder because all he offered was bash, and only picked him again after he worked on the other parts of his game. Picking a guy and developing him in the position while excluding better players that option is just daft. Why not play ALB and teach him to offload like SBW? Or pick Goodhue and put 10 kgs on him and make him a master crash man? Just saying those things makes them sound stupid. But teaching a guy whose been around years to develop an all-round game is sensible?)
Mate, did you watch the opening minutes of our RWC semi final?
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Tupaea has the talent but he goes missing sometimes. He blows hot and cold but he is still very young. Let's see what he can do with more experience next year.
The same applies to Tele'a who is the biggest 2nd Five in NZ. He is fast, too but his distribution is not top notch. -
@mariner4life said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@nzzp said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@mariner4life said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
i love that people think they need to "see what Laumape can bring"
dude, you know exactly what Laumape can do. He plays one way, and one way only. And that is to run as hard as he can in to the nearest defender.
Which, while i am not exactly a fan of that, will at least provide a point of difference over the "samey samey" types we have at the moment.
... and it is remarkably successful. Good coaching would help him develop other parts of his game.
I'm going to go on my grumpy old man rant now, but FFS if you are a professional back in Union, you should be doing half an hour of kicking practice off either foot multiple times a week. You'll suck to start with, but within a few years you will have a touch on the ball if you ever need to do it.
Too much gym time, not enough skill time.
I'm going to disagree here.
Being able to physically kick and pass when by yourself on the training paddock is waaay different to being able to execute that skill under pressure on a test pitch. And that's assuming that the player develops the mental game to know when to do it, and to where.
Nonu's transformation from bash merchant with suspect hands to a triple threat 2nd 5 tricks so many of us in to thinking it's possible. I think, in the vast majority of occassions, what you arrive with is what you leave with, you just tweak it here and there. And experience helps you be in the right spot.
Watched Nonu doing that with another AB before a Scottish match. Bill on a string. I was surprised.
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@nostrildamus said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
Havili-best position is 12? He can kick as I recall..
Laumape does not just run into players, he can also run over them, not bad athleticism for a disrespected leprechaun.
Benches 170 kg.
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@cgrant said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
Tupaea has the talent but he goes missing sometimes. He blows hot and cold but he is still very young. Let's see what he can do with more experience next year.
IMO he has been played out of position for both Waikato and the Chiefs. Having watched a lot of Quinn since his schoolboy days I think he is better suited to 2nd 5 rather than centre because he is a direct runner who can distribute. Tupaea started a lot more for the Chiefs this season than even he would have been expecting to.
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@Bones said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
@nzzp said in What’s out there at Second Five?:
I'm not picking on Ngani here.
Well it certainly looked like you were saying he doesn't try to enhance any of his skills, is lazy and doesn't train...
that's a long bow to draw.
Was more of a grumpy old man rant at all professional players - kicking is such a useful skill to have, there's no excuse in my brain to not be working on it. Over time, it must get better - and when you have to pull one out in a game, it won't be terrible.
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@nzzp well you seem to know more than I do about their kicking training 😬 I would have assumed most of them do, but most of them are probably given instruction on what's expected of them on the field and it probably doesn't always include kicking...
