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@Victor-Meldrew I don't disagree that Obama screwed the pooch on healthcare. I guess my point was it was partisan for a long time before that though, at least as far back as Clinton's attempt in 1993. The Republicans attacked that specifically because it was likely to enhance the perception of the Democrats. It was a directly partisan attack (look up the Kristol memos). It's just not correct to think that all the partisan bullshit is all down to the Democrats.
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@dogmeat said in US Politics:
Nevertheless he, LBJ and Nixon probably the .... best... in my time.
I'd put Reagan and LBJ top of the list in my time. Both articulated a vison and worked to it, reached out across the political divide, took risks when they needed to and seemed to relate to Joe Public
Both showed a lot of moral courage too - LBJ in facing down the racist elements in his party and Reagan standing up against anti-gay religious bigotry at considerable risk to his political career.
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@JC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew I don't disagree that Obama screwed the pooch on healthcare. I guess my point was it was partisan for a long time before that though, at least as far back as Clinton's attempt in 1993. The Republicans attacked that specifically because it was likely to enhance the perception of the Democrats. It was a directly partisan attack (look up the Kristol memos). It's just not correct to think that all the partisan bullshit is all down to the Democrats.
Oh, for sure. The Republicans under Gingrich were a disgrace and a bigger stain on US politics that the one on Jenifer Flowers dress.
It's just that I recall McCain and the Rep. senate leader holding out a hand which Obama either didn't see or didn't want to see.
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@Kiwiwomble said in US Politics:
...so it would have been Obama being partisan...for don't doing something that would stop the Republicans from acting partisan? so if he didn't take the high road its all his fault?
My point is there was probably an opportunity for a bi-partisan approach on Healthcare which Obama blew - either deliberately or because he didn't understand the consequences of his actions.
This sort of stuff has been going on with healthcare in the US for decades. Ironically, Trump's probably the first President not to actually tinker with health care for yonks
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Mentioning tricky Dicky prompted me to look up the exact quote he made when he declined the urgings of Republicans, including Eisenhower, to contest the 1960 election result on the basis of alleged voting irregularities in two swing states
Here it is
"I could think of no worse example for nations abroad, who for the first time were trying to put free electoral procedures into effect, than that of the United States wrangling over the results of our presidential election, and even suggesting that the presidency itself could be stolen by thievery at the ballot box".
As President Nixon is known for (finally) getting out of Vietnam and the China rapprochement but domestically he was responsible for a number of social security reforms, the first affirmative action programme, created the OSH and Environmental Protection Agencies. Apart from the foreign initiatives in Asia he signed SALT1 and tried to resolve the Arab/Israeli succeeding in ousting Russian influence in Egypt.
He did extend the North Vietnamese bombing campaign into Cambodia and struggled to contain inflation and there was the Watergate thing - but his record stacks up pretty well against those of most Presidents. Shame about his paranoia and other psychotic issues.
Massively unpopular in the early 70's as everything unravelled but an interesting character.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@Kiwiwomble said in US Politics:
...so it would have been Obama being partisan...for don't doing something that would stop the Republicans from acting partisan? so if he didn't take the high road its all his fault?
My point is there was probably an opportunity for a bi-partisan approach on Healthcare which Obama blew - either deliberately or because he didn't understand the consequences of his actions.
This sort of stuff has been going on with healthcare in the US for decades. Ironically, Trump's probably the first President not to actually tinker with health care for yonks
I thought he wanted to but his plans were blocked?
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@dogmeat said in US Politics:
Mentioning tricky Dicky prompted me to look up the exact quote he made when he declined the urgings of Republicans, including Eisenhower, to contest the 1960 election result on the basis of alleged voting irregularities in two swing states
Here it is
"I could think of no worse example for nations abroad, who for the first time were trying to put free electoral procedures into effect, than that of the United States wrangling over the results of our presidential election, and even suggesting that the presidency itself could be stolen by thievery at the ballot box".
As President Nixon is known for (finally) getting out of Vietnam and the China rapprochement but domestically he was responsible for a number of social security reforms, the first affirmative action programme, created the OSH and Environmental Protection Agencies. Apart from the foreign initiatives in Asia he signed SALT1 and tried to resolve the Arab/Israeli succeeding in ousting Russian influence in Egypt.
He did extend the North Vietnamese bombing campaign into Cambodia and struggled to contain inflation and there was the Watergate thing - but his record stacks up pretty well against those of most Presidents. Shame about his paranoia and other psychotic issues.
Massively unpopular in the early 70's as everything unravelled but an interesting character.
In his case, Watergate is the first thing that enters most people's mind when you mention him, despite the good things he did
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
a bigger stain on US politics that the one on Jenifer Flowers dress
You got the correct "not a sexual encounter" for Bill there?
I think it was Monica that had the laundry Bill (yes), but it does get a bit confusing. Good to see Jennifer spelled with a "J". Ms Flowers parents didn't get it. Gennifer belongs in the bogan names thread. Jennifer is welsh for "the fair one" which is nowhere near as much fun as Bronwyn which basically means nice tits.
I'm actually not sure how much any of the Presidents achieve, most of them are just figureheads for what goes on underneath them (no not Bill) but congress, the senate and even the "civil service" bureaucracy. The ideas come from elsewhere and they take the credit / or blame.
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@canefan said in US Politics:
I thought he wanted to but his plans were blocked?
Think he advocated a range of options when running in 2016 but gave up on anything major (probably wise) post election when he saw it wouldn't pass.
Probably wanted to replace it with exactly the same thing but call it TrumpCare...
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
I thought he wanted to but his plans were blocked?
Think he advocated a range of options when running in 2016 but gave up on anything major (probably wise) post election when he saw it wouldn't pass.
Probably wanted to replace it with exactly the same thing but call it TrumpCare...
But better. The best ever....
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
a bigger stain on US politics that the one on Jenifer Flowers dress
You got the correct "not a sexual encounter" for Bill there?
Probably. So many even Slick Willy would lose his head and get confused
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@canefan said in US Politics:
But better. The best ever....
....Polished turd?
How the fuck the US has such an appallingly inefficient health care system is beyond me.
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The ACA was heavily tinkered with when the penalty for not having insurance was reduced to 0. ACA was also modelled on Romney's plan, so could easily have been a bipartisan consensus, but a lot of Republicans legitimately believed then and now that health care should be private, and aren't interested in reform.
Inauguration is tomorrow at approximately 6am NZ time.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
But better. The best ever....
....Polished turd?
How the fuck the US has such an appallingly inefficient health care system is beyond me.
It is a disgrace. But the people are brainwashed with the whole "make your own way, no handouts" idea. Otherwise why would anyone who is not of sufficient means not want subsidized or free health care?
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so, do we think Trump will continue the tradition of leaving a note to the incoming president? was just reading Melania hasn't asked Mrs Biden to the White House for a tour etc, a 70 year old tradition
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@Kiwiwomble said in US Politics:
so, do we think Trump will continue the tradition of leaving a note to the incoming president? was just reading Melania hasn't asked Mrs Biden to the White House for a tour etc, a 70 year old tradition
I think Mrs Biden knows her way around.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
But better. The best ever....
....Polished turd?
How the fuck the US has such an appallingly inefficient health care system is beyond me.
Sure, there's clear historic reasons for it compounded by lobbying, but which other country would you want to be treated in if you had cancer..?
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@antipodean obviously, there will also be all kinds of staff, its more about the symbiology and tradition
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@Kiwiwomble said in US Politics:
@antipodean obviously, there will also be all kinds of staff, its more about the symbiology and tradition
Some of the worst aspects of service life are justified by the word tradition. It also holds back large companies that can't be responsive to market opportunities.
That being said, it does seem to be plain good manners. Which is why the Trumps won't be doing it.
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