Coronavirus - UK
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan
You can't make people have it, you'd just hope they'd see the bigger picture. The longer we stay in the covid grip of waves and restrictions people suffer.
I know others have mentioned above but its health, mental health, its people's jobs and businesses etc.
If anyone has a suggestion to get us out of this other than vaccination then I'd love to hear it.Great point. It may be a public health issue, but it has far reaching consequences for all health sectors, and most importantly the economy. The UK will be wanting to trg to turn around the 9.9% drop in GDP
The economy decline wasn't due to covid. That's a consequence of human decisions, not a virus response to the economy. That's a trade off for the covid response. Is that a fair thing to say?
Covid caused a health crisis of epic proportions. That triggered the lockdown. That fucked the economy. Our viewpoints are polar opposites
Triggered and caused are different. I know I'm being difficult mate but we need to be precise. Covid didn't cause the economy free-fall. The policy makers did. Remember every country had a previous pandemic plan and large scale lockdowns for so long have never been used before, precisely because of the collateral damage.
The economy is a side effect of the medicine
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan
You can't make people have it, you'd just hope they'd see the bigger picture. The longer we stay in the covid grip of waves and restrictions people suffer.
I know others have mentioned above but its health, mental health, its people's jobs and businesses etc.
If anyone has a suggestion to get us out of this other than vaccination then I'd love to hear it.Great point. It may be a public health issue, but it has far reaching consequences for all health sectors, and most importantly the economy. The UK will be wanting to trg to turn around the 9.9% drop in GDP
The economy decline wasn't due to covid. That's a consequence of human decisions, not a virus response to the economy. That's a trade off for the covid response. Is that a fair thing to say?
Covid caused a health crisis of epic proportions. That triggered the lockdown. That fucked the economy. Our viewpoints are polar opposites
Triggered and caused are different. I know I'm being difficult mate but we need to be precise. Covid didn't cause the economy free-fall. The policy makers did. Remember every country had a previous pandemic plan and large scale lockdowns for so long have never been used before, precisely because of the collateral damage.
If you can't see the flaw in your argument I can't help you
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@victor-meldrew sorry to hear that, there are always failings unfortunately and there are good and bad hospitals, GP centres, even whole ccgs that are overall worse than others . And I am biased having worked in the NHS my adult life, my experiences have been positive, a few disappointments but overall positive as a patient.
My optimistic little self always sees room for improvement and I know I've seen huge positive changes in our area with regards to ways of working, I hope more lessons are learned! -
@canefan i can't. Please help me.
If you take medicine for inflamed joint pain and the medicine gives you a stomach ache.
The joint pain didn't cause the stomach ache.
Covid didn't cause any loss of income and business closures. And it certainly didn't cause the harm on future economics.Lockdowns and furlough weren't a compulsory response to covid. That's the whole point, we copied a Chinese totalitarian strategy and discarded years of pandemic plans. That's some history that no one can alter.
By the way, what's with the sudden, " if you don't know i can't help you" bullshit featuring on fern discussions these days?
Either have the patience to debate or don't. Both are fine. Reminds me of the religious when asked to prove God existsπ
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan i can't. Please help me.
If you take medicine for inflamed joint pain and the medicine gives you a stomach ache.
The joint pain didn't cause the stomach ache.
Covid didn't cause any loss of income and business closures. And it certainly didn't cause the harm on future economics.Lockdowns and furlough weren't a compulsory response to covid. That's the whole point, we copied a Chinese totalitarian strategy and discarded years of pandemic plans. That's some history that no one can alter.
By the way, what's with the sudden, " if you don't know i can't help you" bullshit featuring on fern discussions these days?
Either have the patience to debate or don't. Both are fine. Reminds me of the religious when asked to prove God existsπ
They may have pandemic plans. But covid19 is the biggest baddest most widespread outbreak in my lifetime. Hence the proportionally serious response. Almost every country in the modern world has used lockdowns as part of their management of the pandemic. Some made that decision after realising that staying open wasn't working
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan
You can't make people have it, you'd just hope they'd see the bigger picture. The longer we stay in the covid grip of waves and restrictions people suffer.
I know others have mentioned above but its health, mental health, its people's jobs and businesses etc.
If anyone has a suggestion to get us out of this other than vaccination then I'd love to hear it.Great point. It may be a public health issue, but it has far reaching consequences for all health sectors, and most importantly the economy. The UK will be wanting to trg to turn around the 9.9% drop in GDP
Economy slated to rebound by around 7.5% this year and a further 5.5% next year. The economy will be OK with a little time, to be honest, for most people it already is OK. There are of course some sectors that will suffer badly - travel, hospitality etc. However the levels of support for businesses form the Government has been very good. This is of course at the expense of Govt borrowing but it should be remembered that the cost of that borrowing is extremely low. Something like 0.7% pa.
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@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
You can't make people have it, you'd just hope they'd see the bigger picture.
This is bang on.
The feature of covid is the first month when the people universally complied with an articulated threat. Then cracks and inconsistencies followed - Ferguson's numbers were high, health spokespeople flaunted lockdown rules, tic toc videos from the nhs were questioned, the lockdown dates kept changing.In my contrary way I'm sceptical that the government's message has satisfies the people adequately enough. I've believed this for all countries. If the kids in class aren't learning the lessons, is it the kid's at fault or the teachers?
I say the teachers and suggest that we had everyone on the same page in the first month and then the teacher's got inconsistent. Sure, some kids learn at different speeds, but any leader with a clear, consistent and coherent plan will get the message across to everyone - just like in March 2020.
I'd love to know how many sceptics exist in Britain right now, and why they're sceptical
You have hit on a point here about the public buy in regarding lockdown, it has without a doubt reduced. This though, IMO, is only in part due to the mixed signals and varied info coming out, anyone who realistically thought that the Government experts knew everything from the get go need their bumps felt. The data on this thing is constantly changing, modelling will also change along with that. This is what we call learning by experience. Anyone that expected different would be a fool.
Lockdown burnout though is a real thing, people will only put up with stuff for so long, especially if they see no real reason. From my limited view it seems that the buy in for lockdown etc is such greater among those that have had first hand experience of the effects of covid, either through their work or family/friends.
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@siam said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan i can't. Please help me.
If you take medicine for inflamed joint pain and the medicine gives you a stomach ache.
The joint pain didn't cause the stomach ache.
Covid didn't cause any loss of income and business closures. And it certainly didn't cause the harm on future economics.Lockdowns and furlough weren't a compulsory response to covid. That's the whole point, we copied a Chinese totalitarian strategy and discarded years of pandemic plans. That's some history that no one can alter.
By the way, what's with the sudden, " if you don't know i can't help you" bullshit featuring on fern discussions these days?
Either have the patience to debate or don't. Both are fine. Reminds me of the religious when asked to prove God existsπ
They may have pandemic plans. But covid19 is the biggest baddest most widespread outbreak in my lifetime. Hence the proportionally serious response. Almost every country in the modern world has used lockdowns as part of their management of the pandemic. Some made that decision after realising that staying open wasn't working
According to Niall Ferguson (outstanding historian, not covid death over estimator) explains 3 years in recent history with more excess deaths than 2020 in Britain: 1918, 1940 and 1951. The first 2 are easy. In 1951 there was a severe influenza epidemic, just in Britain and particularly the Liverpool region. More excess deaths than 2020.
In terms of months, April 2020 isn't in the top 10 months for excess mortalities since 1970. So in your lifetime there have been significantly worse months of excess mortality in Britain than April 2020 - the same time and month that lockdowns and copying the China strategy were adopted.
So, historically not the biggest and baddest.
I know where we all are at right now. I share the sentiments of "we're here now let's deal with it". I get that we all see vaccination compliance as the fastest way out of this, most probably over and above the health aspect - as the fern poll of why will you get the vaccine showed - everyone here named social ease as the principle reason.
I get that it's a shit situation that can't be undone and the sooner it's over the better. Vaccines will do it, but so will an attention shift from msm, imo.But it's also never the time to manipulate or overlook history and data in an effort to appease and demonstrate no wrong doing. No missteps from the authorities. No faults by them. No over the top sensationalism and hysteria.
There are lessons here to make things better for my nephews and your kids. We've fucked them already with a year of lost schooling, isolation from friends and a monumental public debt. Finding excuses thick and fast for the inept leadership, the censorship, the citizens turning on each other, the overt hijacking of the term "the science" is not going to help our kids deal with the next one.
I'm wrong to keep using hindsight, to put the boot in.
But you guys are wrong to commend and make excuses for the handling of the pandemic as though Boris et al have achieved something gallant. They've just peddled fear at every opportunity.
"how did it all start Dad?"
What are you going to tell them? All the bullshit (and genuine virus tragedy and death) flows from there.Thanks for the chat - out!ππ
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@catogrande said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@canefan
You can't make people have it, you'd just hope they'd see the bigger picture. The longer we stay in the covid grip of waves and restrictions people suffer.
I know others have mentioned above but its health, mental health, its people's jobs and businesses etc.
If anyone has a suggestion to get us out of this other than vaccination then I'd love to hear it.Great point. It may be a public health issue, but it has far reaching consequences for all health sectors, and most importantly the economy. The UK will be wanting to trg to turn around the 9.9% drop in GDP
Economy slated to rebound by around 7.5% this year and a further 5.5% next year. The economy will be OK with a little time, to be honest, for most people it already is OK. There are of course some sectors that will suffer badly - travel, hospitality etc. However the levels of support for businesses form the Government has been very good. This is of course at the expense of Govt borrowing but it should be remembered that the cost of that borrowing is extremely low. Something like 0.7% pa.
I ask others to believe my views so I'll extend the same courtesy.
So the economy not such a cost as my algorithms make out. Inflation in a few years always being the cited bogeyman.
Cool. Fair enough, appreciate the explanation π -
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew sorry to hear that, there are always failings unfortunately and there are good and bad hospitals, GP centres, even whole ccgs that are overall worse than others . And I am biased having worked in the NHS my adult life, my experiences have been positive, a few disappointments but overall positive as a patient.
Thanks, but not an isolated incident, sadly. As a patient, have you had treatment in other countries/systems?
My optimistic little self always sees room for improvement and I know I've seen huge positive changes in our area with regards to ways of working, I hope more lessons are learned!
The vaccine rollout has been a huge success and poss. shows the way forward - imaginative thinking, great leadership (Kate Bingham deserves several damehoods, IMHO) combining the strengths of the private sector and the NHS and above all, focussing on the end result and not worrying about who delivers what to patients. Just hope it's used as a model for other stuff.
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@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew sorry to hear that, there are always failings unfortunately and there are good and bad hospitals, GP centres, even whole ccgs that are overall worse than others . And I am biased having worked in the NHS my adult life, my experiences have been positive, a few disappointments but overall positive as a patient.
Thanks, but not an isolated incident, sadly. As a patient, have you had treatment in other countries/systems?
My optimistic little self always sees room for improvement and I know I've seen huge positive changes in our area with regards to ways of working, I hope more lessons are learned!
The vaccine rollout has been a huge success and poss. shows the way forward - imaginative thinking, great leadership (Kate Bingham deserves several damehoods, IMHO) combining the strengths of the private sector and the NHS and above all, focussing on the end result and not worrying about who delivers what to patients. Just hope it's used as a model for other stuff.
I have
Kidney stones in Japan.
Zero pain relief. It was rough.
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@mikethesnow said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew sorry to hear that, there are always failings unfortunately and there are good and bad hospitals, GP centres, even whole ccgs that are overall worse than others . And I am biased having worked in the NHS my adult life, my experiences have been positive, a few disappointments but overall positive as a patient.
Thanks, but not an isolated incident, sadly. As a patient, have you had treatment in other countries/systems?
My optimistic little self always sees room for improvement and I know I've seen huge positive changes in our area with regards to ways of working, I hope more lessons are learned!
The vaccine rollout has been a huge success and poss. shows the way forward - imaginative thinking, great leadership (Kate Bingham deserves several damehoods, IMHO) combining the strengths of the private sector and the NHS and above all, focussing on the end result and not worrying about who delivers what to patients. Just hope it's used as a model for other stuff.
I have
Kidney stones in Japan.
Zero pain relief. It was rough.
I went to a hospital in Tokyo with an infection. Service was excellent
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Although it depends on the hospital to a certain extent, I think that Japan has an excellent public health system with far fewer people falling through the cracks, perhaps simply because the people working inside the system are very serious about their jobs - across the board (say 99.9%).
I'm not so sure that is true for NZ or the UK, where if say even 97.0% of workers are engaged, there is a much higher chance that you'll get random service from the remaining 3%.
Like @Victor-Meldrew I have almost no confidence in the health system, but in my case it is focused on NZ rather than the NHS. My old man's local GP completely fucked up his initial diagnosis, meaning that what could have been a relatively simple prostate cancer diagnosis ended up progressing for months and months until the treatment ended up nearly killing him. Later, when he was later being treated in Hamilton, he would have died based on the treatment he received except for one guy who just happened to be doing his job extra well that night ( identifying the pulmonary edema that was going to kill him but was missed by other there).
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@mikethesnow jesus that made me shiver!
@victor-meldrew only seen a GP in Ireland so not extremely foreign as I spend a lot of time there, thankfully I don't get ill often and its usually the odd bout of tonsillitis. I'd hate to be seriously ill in Ireland though or need an ambulance.
Don't get me wrong I know from my position than I am fortunate and my experiences will be more positive than others purely because I use the service less than others.
I have had an experience of needing emergency surgery though and I honestly can't fault the care I was given, from point of 111, WestMids Ambulance service to A&E at QEHB and aftercare from my GP and consultant.
Had i needed it during the Pandemic then I'd suspect it would have been a more frantic experience. -
@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew sorry to hear that, there are always failings unfortunately and there are good and bad hospitals, GP centres, even whole ccgs that are overall worse than others . And I am biased having worked in the NHS my adult life, my experiences have been positive, a few disappointments but overall positive as a patient.
Thanks, but not an isolated incident, sadly. As a patient, have you had treatment in other countries/systems?
My optimistic little self always sees room for improvement and I know I've seen huge positive changes in our area with regards to ways of working, I hope more lessons are learned!
The vaccine rollout has been a huge success and poss. shows the way forward - imaginative thinking, great leadership (Kate Bingham deserves several damehoods, IMHO) combining the strengths of the private sector and the NHS and above all, focussing on the end result and not worrying about who delivers what to patients. Just hope it's used as a model for other stuff.
I've either had, or had experiences with, medical care in UK, NZ, Australia, Austria, France, Hong Kong and Japan.
The main difference between the UK and all the others was the size of the credit card bill after the meeting.
I've long been a pusher for the Japan model, whereby you pay something like 10%. The difference that will make to the NHS would be colossal. It'll never happen though, ever. Political suicide.
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@majorrage said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew sorry to hear that, there are always failings unfortunately and there are good and bad hospitals, GP centres, even whole ccgs that are overall worse than others . And I am biased having worked in the NHS my adult life, my experiences have been positive, a few disappointments but overall positive as a patient.
Thanks, but not an isolated incident, sadly. As a patient, have you had treatment in other countries/systems?
My optimistic little self always sees room for improvement and I know I've seen huge positive changes in our area with regards to ways of working, I hope more lessons are learned!
The vaccine rollout has been a huge success and poss. shows the way forward - imaginative thinking, great leadership (Kate Bingham deserves several damehoods, IMHO) combining the strengths of the private sector and the NHS and above all, focussing on the end result and not worrying about who delivers what to patients. Just hope it's used as a model for other stuff.
I've either had, or had experiences with, medical care in UK, NZ, Australia, Austria, France, Hong Kong and Japan.
The main difference between the UK and all the others was the size of the credit card bill after the meeting.
I've long been a pusher for the Japan model, whereby you pay something like 10%. The difference that will make to the NHS would be colossal. It'll never happen though, ever. Political suicide.
To be fair, even the Japanese model is unsustainable (I believe) with the aging population as there just aren't enough payers (and btw, we pay either 20 or 30% depending on your insurance system and perhaps income).
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@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@mikethesnow jesus that made me shiver!
Google varicocele. Not life-threatening but can be uncomfortable/bit painful and needs minor day-surgery every 10 years or so.
Had it fixed in NZ, Switzerland & Germany with no problems. The NHS screwed things up and it can't be fixed any more....
I have had an experience of needing emergency surgery though and I honestly can't fault the care I was given, from point of 111, WestMids Ambulance service to A&E at QEHB and aftercare from my GP and consultant.
Parts of the NHS are OK/good but in my experience far too much is really mediocre and there seems a culture of low expectation - e.g. Cancer care is abysmal.
My sister in Oz noticed a lump in her breast and five days after booking a GP appointment, she had been operated on (not unusual she tells me). Oz ranks #2 on breast cancer survival rates, the NHS ranks #19/24.
But it's the national religion, NHS workers are perfect heroes, and the concept can't be criticised, and that's the big problem I feel.
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@majorrage said in Coronavirus - UK:
I've long been a pusher for the Japan model, whereby you pay something like 10%. The difference that will make to the NHS would be colossal. It'll never happen though, ever. Political suicide.
Think "Free at the Point of Use" can work, but it's going to take a huge battle with the producer interests like the RCN, BMA etc to make it happen. And I just can't see that happening.
Will never forget after the Mid Staffs scandal was exposed, the Royal College of Nurses put out a press release trying to argue the 1,200 deaths from negligence was a reasonable price to pay "for not having a US-style system"...
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - UK:
@mikethesnow said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew said in Coronavirus - UK:
@r-l said in Coronavirus - UK:
@victor-meldrew sorry to hear that, there are always failings unfortunately and there are good and bad hospitals, GP centres, even whole ccgs that are overall worse than others . And I am biased having worked in the NHS my adult life, my experiences have been positive, a few disappointments but overall positive as a patient.
Thanks, but not an isolated incident, sadly. As a patient, have you had treatment in other countries/systems?
My optimistic little self always sees room for improvement and I know I've seen huge positive changes in our area with regards to ways of working, I hope more lessons are learned!
The vaccine rollout has been a huge success and poss. shows the way forward - imaginative thinking, great leadership (Kate Bingham deserves several damehoods, IMHO) combining the strengths of the private sector and the NHS and above all, focussing on the end result and not worrying about who delivers what to patients. Just hope it's used as a model for other stuff.
I have
Kidney stones in Japan.
Zero pain relief. It was rough.
I went to a hospital in Tokyo with an infection. Service was excellent
Agreed
Waiting time, diagnosis, care etc was superb.
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Inflation is here and now in the UK & US, though for some of us of a certain age it is at a laughable level. The theory in play ATM is that this inflation is just a spike caused by the downturn and subsequent rebound in consumption. This is turn will result in a sharp reduction in inflation in a years time as the current stats get washed out. The thing that could scupper this theory is wage inflation. Not thought to be a problem though. If inflation is here to stay though, bond yields will rise. This will mean carnage in the bond markets with capital losses all over the place and the general cost of borrowing increasing dramatically. Then the chickens may be on their way home to roost as far as Govt debt is concerned.
We shall see I guess.