NZ Eligibility
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@machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@machpants I always find it strange how people call these players 'poaches', while they give no second thought to players born and bred in NZ being selected and playing for other countries (e.g. Tonga or Samoa) based on the (grand)parent rule, even if they've hardly been to that other country and maybe don't even speak the language.
The Tongan and Samoan team are mostly kiwis, we have the depth to be able to do it. We can afford to let kiwis who have virtually no chance of making the ABs play for a tier 2 side of heritage. Barely any of those kiwis would make the ABs, just the ones that went to NH early in career. In the current squads, and RWC 19 squads, I can't name any. The islands cannot compete when their best players are taken so young. PI kiwis they are not poaches as they have heritage, none of the four ABs have NZ heritage, they are pure poaches from schools, often when they get spotted coming over to play here as kids. The ABs are on residency, just like Aki etc so except their native land never had an opportunity to cap them first.
NZ does heaps for the development of international players of Tonga and Samoa, but I really don't like seeing school kids being brought in. Good on the players themselves, this is their one shot at money in their careers, but leaves a bad taste in my mouth of how many we are now doing. Previously it was pretty rare
Someone said it another thread that the current "system", where NZ "poaches" a Tongan / Samoan / Fijian who comes on a scholarship as a kid and Tonga / Samoa / Fiji get to pick guys who were born, bred and developed in NZ, works pretty well for both sides. Is the occasional "poachee" the price that the Island sides have to pay for all the NZ-developed talent in their squads? What do they get in return from France, for example?
If we end the current "system", Samoa in particular would be ruined.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer I'm sure there are kids all around the world who dream of becoming an All Black. For some reason I remain convinced that the pathway shouldn't be open to kids offered an inducement to school in another country solely because they're good at rugby.
I'd actually prefer they were "New Zealanders" first which would allow for those who migrate as kids with their families.
In this kids like Segner would also be excluded unless he intended first and foremost to become a New Zealand citizen.
My view is that eligibility should be tied to citizenship (difficult for the home nations, obvs). You just can't quibble with some playing for a country of which they are a citizen. So, if someone migrates to a country at whatever age and is granted citizenship in accordance with the laws of that country, why shouldn't they then play rugby for that country?
That would stop the current farcical situation where you have a guy who plays pro rugby in England for 3 years, play international rugby for England for a further 2 years and then comes back to NZ to live the rest of his life in rugby retirement.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It does actually.
When they make the five year stand down from when they turn 18 we’ll see a slight reduction in the school poaching.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would zip represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
Self nicknames! Love it.
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@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It does actually.
When they make the five year stand down from when they turn 18 we’ll see a slight reduction in the school poaching.
Hadn't really considered that - I guess we'll see a lot more PI's heading north too.
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@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would zip represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
Self nicknames! Love it.
You didn’t know that was how Northern Koreans referred to themselves?
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness". -
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness".It really does define it, as without citizenship you are not a kiwi. You might identify as one, but nope you aren't. My wife got citizenship as soon as she was able, too the day. She's a Cornish kiwi, but until you are an Un Zudder, your not a kiwi. You're just someone who lives here, a resident. She, and I, would give up our UK passport of we needed too. Cos we're kiwis
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@machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness".It really does define it, as without citizenship you are not a kiwi. You might identify as one, but nope you aren't. My wife got citizenship as soon as she was able, too the day. She's a Cornish kiwi, but until you are an Un Zudder, your not a kiwi. You're just someone who lives here, a resident. She, and I, would give up our UK passport of we needed too. Cos we're kiwis
What an absolute load of shit. Being a citizen makes you a citizen. Being a “kiwi” is something completely different.
My family ties with NZ go back to 1841. Every generation since then was born, raised and died in NZ. Plenty of them
fought in wars for NZ. It just so happens that my parents decided to move to Australia for better work opportunities.
So I was born in Australia, but was always raised as a “kiwi”, my extended family was in NZ and it was always “home”.
But now you are telling me I wasn’t a kiwi until i had applied for my passport? What about my daughter?
She barely remembers the 2 years she lived in Australia before we moved to NZ. Kiwi grandparents on both sides. Is she not a kiwi until I fill out a form and give the government $300 for a travel document?
You obviously think you get to define who is a “kiwi” but you a wrong and it’s actually pretty fucking offensive. -
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness".Agree 100%
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@pukunui said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness".It really does define it, as without citizenship you are not a kiwi. You might identify as one, but nope you aren't. My wife got citizenship as soon as she was able, too the day. She's a Cornish kiwi, but until you are an Un Zudder, your not a kiwi. You're just someone who lives here, a resident. She, and I, would give up our UK passport of we needed too. Cos we're kiwis
What an absolute load of shit. Being a citizen makes you a citizen. Being a “kiwi” is something completely different.
My family ties with NZ go back to 1841. Every generation since then was born, raised and died in NZ. Plenty of them
fought in wars for NZ. It just so happens that my parents decided to move to Australia for better work opportunities.
So I was born in Australia, but was always raised as a “kiwi”, my extended family was in NZ and it was always “home”.
But now you are telling me I wasn’t a kiwi until i had applied for my passport? What about my daughter?
She barely remembers the 2 years she lived in Australia before we moved to NZ. Kiwi grandparents on both sides. Is she not a kiwi until I fill out a form and give the government $300 for a travel document?
You obviously think you get to define who is a “kiwi” but you a wrong and it’s actually pretty fucking offensive.Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I was attempting to point out that people who keep their other citizenship rather than give it up to get NZ don't seem that kiwi to me.
Probably too deep a subject to be adequately discussed via text.
Once again, my apologies to you and your family.
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@machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness".It really does define it, as without citizenship you are not a kiwi. You might identify as one, but nope you aren't. My wife got citizenship as soon as she was able, too the day. She's a Cornish kiwi, but until you are an Un Zudder, your not a kiwi. You're just someone who lives here, a resident. She, and I, would give up our UK passport of we needed too. Cos we're kiwis
What an absolute load of shit. Being a citizen makes you a citizen. Being a “kiwi” is something completely different.
My family ties with NZ go back to 1841. Every generation since then was born, raised and died in NZ. Plenty of them
fought in wars for NZ. It just so happens that my parents decided to move to Australia for better work opportunities.
So I was born in Australia, but was always raised as a “kiwi”, my extended family was in NZ and it was always “home”.
But now you are telling me I wasn’t a kiwi until i had applied for my passport? What about my daughter?
She barely remembers the 2 years she lived in Australia before we moved to NZ. Kiwi grandparents on both sides. Is she not a kiwi until I fill out a form and give the government $300 for a travel document?
You obviously think you get to define who is a “kiwi” but you a wrong and it’s actually pretty fucking offensive.Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I was attempting to point out that people who keep their other citizenship rather than give it up to get NZ don't seem that kiwi to me.
Probably too deep a subject to be adequately discussed via text.
Once again, my apologies to you and your family.
All good. Clearly for me the citizenship part is fairly meaningless when in comes to defining “kiwiness”
(Which clearly has no single definition).
Especially when there are people with lots of money who can essentially buy their way in.
I still have Australian citizenship and don’t intend to give it up because it makes things like Australian banks accounts and medical care much easier if and when I might need them. I would never claim to be an “Aussie” though.
Definitely Un-Astrayan. -
@pukunui said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness".It really does define it, as without citizenship you are not a kiwi. You might identify as one, but nope you aren't. My wife got citizenship as soon as she was able, too the day. She's a Cornish kiwi, but until you are an Un Zudder, your not a kiwi. You're just someone who lives here, a resident. She, and I, would give up our UK passport of we needed too. Cos we're kiwis
What an absolute load of shit. Being a citizen makes you a citizen. Being a “kiwi” is something completely different.
My family ties with NZ go back to 1841. Every generation since then was born, raised and died in NZ. Plenty of them
fought in wars for NZ. It just so happens that my parents decided to move to Australia for better work opportunities.
So I was born in Australia, but was always raised as a “kiwi”, my extended family was in NZ and it was always “home”.
But now you are telling me I wasn’t a kiwi until i had applied for my passport? What about my daughter?
She barely remembers the 2 years she lived in Australia before we moved to NZ. Kiwi grandparents on both sides. Is she not a kiwi until I fill out a form and give the government $300 for a travel document?
You obviously think you get to define who is a “kiwi” but you a wrong and it’s actually pretty fucking offensive.Well you automatically got KIwi citizenship at birth through descent so unfortunately you’ve always been a kiwi even if it took you a while to get a passport
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@junior said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness".It really does define it, as without citizenship you are not a kiwi. You might identify as one, but nope you aren't. My wife got citizenship as soon as she was able, too the day. She's a Cornish kiwi, but until you are an Un Zudder, your not a kiwi. You're just someone who lives here, a resident. She, and I, would give up our UK passport of we needed too. Cos we're kiwis
What an absolute load of shit. Being a citizen makes you a citizen. Being a “kiwi” is something completely different.
My family ties with NZ go back to 1841. Every generation since then was born, raised and died in NZ. Plenty of them
fought in wars for NZ. It just so happens that my parents decided to move to Australia for better work opportunities.
So I was born in Australia, but was always raised as a “kiwi”, my extended family was in NZ and it was always “home”.
But now you are telling me I wasn’t a kiwi until i had applied for my passport? What about my daughter?
She barely remembers the 2 years she lived in Australia before we moved to NZ. Kiwi grandparents on both sides. Is she not a kiwi until I fill out a form and give the government $300 for a travel document?
You obviously think you get to define who is a “kiwi” but you a wrong and it’s actually pretty fucking offensive.Well you automatically got KIwi citizenship at birth through descent so unfortunately you’ve always been a kiwi even if it took you a while to get a passport
Stop it, he's Aussie just like @mariner4life
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Ah can someone give me a quick prècis here? The thread seems to have turned in to a weird shitfight and I've been tagged
