NZ Eligibility
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@stargazer Nah, better to look to the future.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nepia How can it be poaching if the players themselves make the choice to play here and wear the black jersey (when offered)?
PS: I'd have preferred it if they'd called up Ash Dixon, btw.
That’s just semantics. Bundle Aki made the choice to live in Ireland and represent Ireland. A poach is a poach, any player who moves to another country to play professional rugby and then goes on to play for that country is a poach.
Ps: Me too.
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The poach maybe by secondary schools trying to up their first XV, rather than by NZR, but it is still a poach from the islands. I'd rather NZR said we won't pick these players by choice, so they could still get their education, and probably a job in the NH later. But they would be available for their homeland. If they come to NZ to play rugby, is a poach IMO. It maybe done by schools but NZR aren't doing anything to discourage it
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@machpants What if Samisoni Taukei'aho always dreamed of becoming an All Black? What he wants doesn't matter at all? Why can't he be responsible for his own decisions and their consequences (i.e. choosing to play for NZL and becoming ineligible for his country of birth)?
Residency requirements have already been increased to 5 years, so from the 1st of January 2022 it's already becoming more difficult to select immigrant players. If a player is willing to wait that long, that should be enough.
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@stargazer I'm sure there are kids all around the world who dream of becoming an All Black. For some reason I remain convinced that the pathway shouldn't be open to kids offered an inducement to school in another country solely because they're good at rugby.
I'd actually prefer they were "New Zealanders" first which would allow for those who migrate as kids with their families.
In this kids like Segner would also be excluded unless he intended first and foremost to become a New Zealand citizen.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@machpants What if Samisoni Taukei'aho always dreamed of becoming an All Black? What he wants doesn't matter at all? Why can't he be responsible for his own decisions and their consequences (i.e. choosing to play for NZL and becoming ineligible for his country of birth)?
Residency requirements have already been increased to 5 years, so from the 1st of January 2022 it's already becoming more difficult to select immigrant players. If a player is willing to wait that long, that should be enough.
So what if it is his dream, it is mine too. Never going to happen as I am crap, and it shouldn't happen for him as he is not an NZer. He is representing NZ, he has been poached by a school from his homeland. Poached by a country relaviely rich in players. It is the rich robbing the poor, it is wrong, pure and simple. I do not begrudge him, he has got to make the right choice for himself, but just cos he dreams of it, doesn't make it right for NZR to take away from poorer nations. We don't need to do it, we should be the 'bigger man' and not choose those players - even if other nations do.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer I'm sure there are kids all around the world who dream of becoming an All Black. For some reason I remain convinced that the pathway shouldn't be open to kids offered an inducement to school in another country solely because they're good at rugby.
I'd actually prefer they were "New Zealanders" first which would allow for those who migrate as kids with their families.
In this kids like Segner would also be excluded unless he intended first and foremost to become a New Zealand citizen.
This! If you are not a kiwi and were not born here, show that you have (or will get) NZ citizenship, then go for it. I honestly think it should be that simple for any nation recognized as ‘Tier 1’ which I extend to include any nation that has a professional league.
To that end having the Drua and Moana Pacific in Oz and NZ puts the PIs outside the definition but it includes Japan and the USA.
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@machpants said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@machpants I always find it strange how people call these players 'poaches', while they give no second thought to players born and bred in NZ being selected and playing for other countries (e.g. Tonga or Samoa) based on the (grand)parent rule, even if they've hardly been to that other country and maybe don't even speak the language.
The Tongan and Samoan team are mostly kiwis, we have the depth to be able to do it. We can afford to let kiwis who have virtually no chance of making the ABs play for a tier 2 side of heritage. Barely any of those kiwis would make the ABs, just the ones that went to NH early in career. In the current squads, and RWC 19 squads, I can't name any. The islands cannot compete when their best players are taken so young. PI kiwis they are not poaches as they have heritage, none of the four ABs have NZ heritage, they are pure poaches from schools, often when they get spotted coming over to play here as kids. The ABs are on residency, just like Aki etc so except their native land never had an opportunity to cap them first.
NZ does heaps for the development of international players of Tonga and Samoa, but I really don't like seeing school kids being brought in. Good on the players themselves, this is their one shot at money in their careers, but leaves a bad taste in my mouth of how many we are now doing. Previously it was pretty rare
Someone said it another thread that the current "system", where NZ "poaches" a Tongan / Samoan / Fijian who comes on a scholarship as a kid and Tonga / Samoa / Fiji get to pick guys who were born, bred and developed in NZ, works pretty well for both sides. Is the occasional "poachee" the price that the Island sides have to pay for all the NZ-developed talent in their squads? What do they get in return from France, for example?
If we end the current "system", Samoa in particular would be ruined.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer I'm sure there are kids all around the world who dream of becoming an All Black. For some reason I remain convinced that the pathway shouldn't be open to kids offered an inducement to school in another country solely because they're good at rugby.
I'd actually prefer they were "New Zealanders" first which would allow for those who migrate as kids with their families.
In this kids like Segner would also be excluded unless he intended first and foremost to become a New Zealand citizen.
My view is that eligibility should be tied to citizenship (difficult for the home nations, obvs). You just can't quibble with some playing for a country of which they are a citizen. So, if someone migrates to a country at whatever age and is granted citizenship in accordance with the laws of that country, why shouldn't they then play rugby for that country?
That would stop the current farcical situation where you have a guy who plays pro rugby in England for 3 years, play international rugby for England for a further 2 years and then comes back to NZ to live the rest of his life in rugby retirement.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It does actually.
When they make the five year stand down from when they turn 18 we’ll see a slight reduction in the school poaching.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would zip represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
Self nicknames! Love it.
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@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It does actually.
When they make the five year stand down from when they turn 18 we’ll see a slight reduction in the school poaching.
Hadn't really considered that - I guess we'll see a lot more PI's heading north too.
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@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would zip represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
Self nicknames! Love it.
You didn’t know that was how Northern Koreans referred to themselves?
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness". -
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 You can be a Kiwi without getting citizenship. I know plenty of people who've moved here years ago, and don't have a NZ passport. Doesn't mean they're not Kiwis.
It really does. I’ve lived almost half of my life in Japan but am not Japanese. Neither would I represent Japan unless I thought it a joke.
I guess it differs from person to person then. I have several friends who moved to NZ as adults, have lived here for years, participate in and contribute to the community, work here and pay their taxes (and have so for years), own a house and have many ties here (more than most Kiwis I know who live outside NZ). At this stage of their life, they have no intention of ever moving back and only return, now and then, to visit family and friends. They're Kiwis in every way, only they have an accent and still have citizenship from their country of birth (which doesn't allow dual citizenship). Their legal status doesn't define their "Kiwi-ness".It really does define it, as without citizenship you are not a kiwi. You might identify as one, but nope you aren't. My wife got citizenship as soon as she was able, too the day. She's a Cornish kiwi, but until you are an Un Zudder, your not a kiwi. You're just someone who lives here, a resident. She, and I, would give up our UK passport of we needed too. Cos we're kiwis
