Hillsborough

Nepia

That was an interesting read and at the same time I kind of wish I hadn't read it.
 
No more going to any crowded places for me. In fact, I'm not leaving the bloody house!

MN5

Great read jegs, not unlike water really. It's a bit of a far cry from having a few drops of rain hit you than being caught up in a tidal wave. Exactly the same principle.
 
I gave up moshing about 20 years ago at a Chilis gig but even then there were a few moments of uneasiness every now and again and it was hard work staying on my feet for a lot of the time.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="578087" data-time="1462700624">
<div>
Great read jegs, not unlike water really. It's a bit of a far cry from having a few drops of rain hit you than being caught up in a tidal wave. Exactly the same principle.
 
I gave up moshing about 20 years ago at a Chilis gig but even then there were a few moments of uneasiness every now and again and it was hard work staying on my feet for a lot of the time.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yeah it backs up what I was saying about that concert , you don't know what's going on at the front . The jury would probably have heard way more detailed evidence about how crowds work which is why they exonerated them .

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="578088" data-time="1462701276">
<div>
Yeah it backs up what I was saying about that concert , you don't know what's going on at the front . The jury would probably have heard way more detailed evidence about how crowds work which is why they exonerated them .
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Very true but as I and others mentioned the whole "football hooligan" thing would have DEFINITELY meant that people would have gone in with pre conceived notions about what caused it. Even as a youngster in 1989 I thought it was football hooligans trampling eachother to death.

Cookie

While it's probably true to say that a minority hooligan element tarnished the rest, I don't think the average football fan did enough to dissociate from them. Many joined in the chants and abuse that generally made the atmosphere at a lot of matches very hostile - both between rival fans and between fans and the police. 
The police became conditioned into policing crowds with baton and riot shield. When the awful events started to unfold at Hillsborough the police would have been thinking in terms of confrontation not compassion, which obviously made a bad situation a lot worse. 
Looking back it's amazing to think that such a poisonous atmosphere at matches was tolerated, even expected, given they were such large scale public events. Would I have taken my son to a game in 80/90s - no chance. 
Luckily things have changed a lot for the better. I take him to quite a lot of Championship games and a few Premiership matches - and the stewards generally don't stand for any of the shit that used to be considered "normal" back in the day.

sparky

UK-based Ferners, there is a 2 hour documentary about Hillsborough on BBC 2 now.

Crucial

Thanks for the stuff on crowd dynamics Jegga. Certainly made a few points that I wasn't aware of.

sparky

Really powerful documentary, almost unwatchable. It's clear that some of the police officers were heroes and saved many lives, but the officials in the control box froze. Graham Kelly of the FA spread the lie that the crush was spread by Liverpool fans violence while people were dying.

sparky

Why was no emergency declared? Why did so few ambulances arrive when defibrillators were needed? Horrific to see police with their back turned to people dying.

dogmeat

I have been in a crowd crush where people were (badly) injured and it is frightening.
 
My last job in the UK involved managing 3 industrial temp agencies in west London. 
 
We supplied stewards for Wembley. I worked a one day music festival (teeny bop bands mainly - Belinda Carlyle, Wham....)
 
Little girls rushed the stage as soon as the gates opened - 4 hrs before the first act. By the time it got dark I had 200 staff linked arm to arm trying to keep the kids back and away from the crush barriers so they wouldn't get hurt. Nevertheless probably 20-30 girls had to be rescued from the crowd suffering from asphyxiation and crush injuries. Most were unconscious but quickly revived and thought they'd scored because they were then allowed to sit and watch the concert from inside the stage area.
 
This made the crowd even more hysterical. Those at the front were getting crushed, those further back saw some people were being let in and wanted to force their way forward and further back the crowd had no idea what was going on and wanted to find out.
 
Several had to be rushed to hospital and one was in a coma but made a recovery.
 
It was frightening - mainly for the crowd but I was also aware that the crush barriers were about three metres behind us and if the crowd broke through it could get nasty for all concerned.
 
There were appeals to the crowd to stop pushing but it made no difference even after we said people were getting hurt. There was even the threat of cancelling the show but the crowd reaction immediately demonstrated the folly of that idea.
 
This was a couple of years after Hillsborough which I saw unfold on TV. It was on a much smaller scale, but it did give me an understanding of how crowd dynamics work. 
 
There was no need to mob the stage. In fact if you got too close you couldn't see the stage as it was about 2.5 metres above the ground, but no way did the girls at the back realise any of that or that they were inadvertently causing people to get seriously injured. They just wanted to get closer to their heroes, and they were with their mates and this mob mentality took over. 
 
This was on the Wembley pitch - across the full width so no choke points. If it had been in the stands.....
 
Football had a real hooligan issue in the 70's and 80's but it was restricted to a handful of clubs and even for them it was a minority causing the issues. Liverpool never had a reputation as a problem club. Apart from Heysel I would have said their reputation was for good humour and passionate support - You'll never walk alone not We're Millwall and we're scum.
 
Hillsborough was shocking and totally unexpected, but the cover-up and the lies were in some ways even worse and totally unnecessary.
 
Mistakes were made by Police on the day. They should have just admitted this, but the culture amongst police in the 80's was in many ways as unsavoury as the hooligans. False evidence, lies, intimidation etc were way too common.
 
Too many lives lost and ruined.

sparky

Daniel Gordon's Hillsborough documentary: 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bgnkn'>http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bgnkn</a>

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="577525" data-time="1462551027">
<div>
Genuine question - was it established if there was a rush of patrons without tickets that entered the ground and to what degree?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Rotatated, on the BBC doco they had the mechanical engineer whose job was to test the turnstiles and basically ascertain what happened at that Leppings Lane entrance
 
He stated that the numbers who entered were not dissimilar to the numbers allocated tickets for that stand. 
 
So, as pointed out in this thread, it seems that the "non ticket holders" reasoning from the Police and government was also a lie

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="sparky" data-cid="578152" data-time="1462746547">
<div>
Daniel Gordon's Hillsborough documentary: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bgnkn'>http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bgnkn</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Brilliantly made documentary, rivetting and analysis backed up by interviews with Police and evidence
 
Shame on the Police, Government and Authorities for perpetuating bald faced lies while people were grieving

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="578274" data-time="1462767862">
<div>
Rotatated, on the BBC doco they had the mechanical engineer whose job was to test the turnstiles and basically ascertain what happened at that Leppings Lane entrance
 
He stated that the numbers who entered were not dissimilar to the numbers allocated tickets for that stand. 
 
So, as pointed out in this thread, it seems that the "non ticket holders" reasoning from the Police and government was also a lie
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Isn't this irrelevant?
 
As didn't the whole issue happen as the turnstiles weren't quick enough to deal with all the late comers arriving at once, and subsequently they opened up an exit allowing a free-for all push? Thus, many people without tickets may or may not have pushed in?
 
As an aside, I still remember the day this happened, and it being introduced to us as students in small-town NZ intermediate school. The teacher had written on the board "Hooliganism". So the links were already there.
 
I guess it's like if the police did something which caused an horrendous accident involving the Christchurch boy racer community. My initial thought would be to blame the boy-racers themselves due to (perceived, at least) reputations the negative media about this sector of society over many a year. That's what these guys have been facing, and it seems like the South Yorkshire Police and subsequent Government led enquiries have been using as a smokescreen to hide their inadequacies and poor decison making.
 
You can see why the people are elated about this result.

dogmeat

The Sun leading with an article headed "THE TRUTH" accusing Liverpool supporters of
 
<ol><li>robbing the dead</li>
<li>pissed on the cops</li>
<li>beat up a cop giving the kiss of life</li>
</ol>didn't help either

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="578285" data-time="1462769532">
<div>
Isn't this irrelevant?
 
As didn't the whole issue happen as the turnstiles weren't quick enough to deal with all the late comers arriving at once, and subsequently they opened up an exit allowing a free-for all push? Thus, many people without tickets may or may not have pushed in?
 
 
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Rotated asked a question about ticket holders and I thought I'd found an answer to his question in the BBC Doco - that's all the post was about Major Rage.
 
Yeah I remember taking on the "hooligans" explanation. Had no reason to doubt it at the time either

Calf

Watched the BBC documentary last night and would make the following comments. I'm not going to address the reprehensible behavior of the police afterwards:
1) Clearly the 96 were not at fault
2) The ground was very poorly designed to act as a neutral venue. 44% of the supporters had to go through 28% of the turnstiles. And once through the turnstiles the only obvious entry point to the standing area was Gate C (which only led to the central pens) which was directly in front of the entering fans.
3) Duckenfield was out of his depth and didn't know how to deal with the situation. He clearly froze and paralyzed an effective police response.
4) The crowd outside the gate were clearly angry and frustrated but the game should have been delayed to calm them down (wrong police decision). No evidence of unticketed supporters however.
5) When the outer gate was opened by the police the central pens were already overcrowded. The critical error by the police was not closing Gate C to the central pens sooner.
6) There had been no planning from or training for the police or emergency services on how to handle the situation which made it far worse. They clearly had no idea what to do.
 
One more general comment which the doco did not address. Despite the above errors, looking at that footage it was an accident waiting to happen. With hindsight, it's hard to believe that anyone thought that having standing only pens behind the goal (without exits) was ever a good idea. All it needed was the right combination of ingredients (eg. an FA cup semi final and policing error). The interviewed fans said that being a bit crushed was normal. They even had crush barriers in place so they knew crushes could/did happen. Also, getting into those pens and being part of a swaying mass of people was part of being a fan. People were swapping their seated tickets to get into the standing area. Basically, if there had been a fire, bombing, shooting or anything else to induce panic, exactly the same thing would have happened. Mental. While police incompetence pulled the trigger, the lasse faire approach of Hillsborough and the FA to crowd safety was probably the major factor that caused this.

Luigi

I was lucky enough to go on a press trip to the 94 World Cup in the US. The opening game was at Soldier Field n Chicago between Germany (holders) and Bolivia.
 
It was crazy hot and even as I walked from the press tent to the stadium I was dripping. Then the queue started. I couldn't figure out what the holdup was until I was really close, but basically Bill Clinton had showed up and the secret service had cordoned off one whole side of the stadium. Even worse, they'd decided to channel everyone through one entrance under the stands where they'd fitted a metal detector gate. Outside was hot, under the stadium was unbearable and the crush was terrific. One woman - a pregnant wife of one of the players - started to faint and the crowd was getting hostile. Then there was a loud cheer from inside the stadium which everyone crowded in underneath assumed was the start of the match. Cue anger and panic, The secret service guys manning the detector quickly became swamped an inevitably the whole contraption got torn down to let people in. It was pandemonium.
 
Ultimately, I got out into the sunshine only to realise the big cheer was for the opening ceremony, not the start of the match. I walked up the aisle to my row and saw Clinton about 20 yards away. I wanted to give him a bollocking for ruining my day and nearly causing a disaster, but I took one look at the freaked out suits all around me and thought better of it. They must have been bricking it that they'd put their man in front of a hostile crowd with any one of them possibly holding a gun.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="578285" data-time="1462769532">
<div>
As didn't the whole issue happen as the turnstiles weren't quick enough to deal with all the late comers arriving at once, and subsequently they opened up an exit allowing a free-for all push? Thus, many people without tickets may or may not have pushed in?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
After watching the ESPN doco (hat tip gt12) one of the first interviews is with a patron who pretty glibly explains he went there on a whim expecting to try and just sneak in due to the sheer numbers of people. Doesn't seem particularly perturbed by the fact that additional unticketed people likely played into the issue - surely? 
 
It seems like the cops (and media) should be raked over the coals for the cover up and slanderous accusations after the fact. But the event itself seems like a combination of circumstances - none with particular malice that ended in a complete tragedy. I feel pretty uncomfortable with the verdict of guilty for unlawfully killed based on what I've seen (for comparison the London bombings victims were also ruled to be unlawfully killed).

KiwiPie

I would say there were many factors that contributed to the tragedy but those factors had been present in previous semi-finals at Hillsborough - in fact the same 2 teams had played there in the semi the previous year. There was crushing at that game which should have been a warning as to what could happen in a ground as shitty as Hillsborough was back then.
 
The cause of the tragedy was the perimeter gate being opened and the gate to the tunnel being left open - that single act condemned people to die. If the tunnel gate had been closed then the fans coming in would have gone to either side and filled the ends of the terraces where there was still space.The police knew this from the very start - and that is why they immediately went into overdrive to shift the blame to the fans.

The Silver Fern

Hillsborough