Ukraine
-
Just what is it with UK pub landlords that everytime there's shit going on, they drive minibus into war zones?
-
@victor-meldrew said in Ukraine:
Just what is it with UK pub landlords that everytime there's shit going on, they drive minibus into war zones?
The Brits have history I guess. The old Dunkirk spirit
-
@victor-meldrew said in Ukraine:
Just what is it with UK pub landlords that everytime there's shit going on, they drive minibus into war zones?
The Brits have history I guess. The old Dunkirk spirit
...or parts of Birmingham
jokes aside, that's some quality from the publican there. Real mad lad.
-
@mariner4life said in US Politics:
@majorrage said in US Politics:
Not hard to see why Putin has chosen this time to start going about his wants.
World severely split from Covid, US severely weakened for weak leadership.
Putin just might be the most effective world leader out there at the moment.what. the. fuck
I'm pretty fucking happy the guy in the White House hasn't gone in all guns blazing. I'm happy the EU aren't pouring troops in to Eastern Europe.
You and me both. The down side is that Putin knew this wouldn’t happen and hence my first point.
This trigger happy little Russian fuck has a lot of very scary weapons. And i am less convinced than ever he wouldn't use them if pushed.
Exactly. He’s got the bombs man, nuclear fuckin weapons. He’s an asshole. Can you see Biden pushing the button? I can’t.
Effective? He's fucking tanking his own country for what? Rebuild the "Russian Empire"? He's managed to unite an enormous number of countries against him and his country. And again i ask, for what? What will umtimately be achieved here?
Well how do you define effective? If you believe Twitter or a lot of MSM, the Russian army is made up of kids, surrederers or 40 miles of trucks with no fuel or food.
If you read articles from proper old school thinkers, most believe this isn’t the case. The worst is far yet to come. It’s hard to guage where public support really is, the only poll I’ve seen shows 70% support him. If that’s to be believed (which I’m hugely skeptical of), then you can’t argue he’s effective.
I don’t know the truth, no idea. But I do know he’s invaded a country with an army, he’s spent the years beforehand doing tie ups with China, India & he’s put his country in such a position through its careful strategy with energy that the sanctions have less effect on Russia, than lack of Russian energy does on Europe.
I hate to say it, but even if some if that is true it’s effective leadership.
You're a smart bloke, far smarter than I, so i am interested in teh answer. This wasn't an attack post, i am interested in the thinking.
I try to think from others point of view. I.e Putins. General themed articles of West Good, Putin bad aren’t going to resolve a conflict, or help me build a holistic view.
I don’t like Putin. I fucking hate him for what he’s done. He’s put me in a school of thought which worries me about myself, my children and my friends / family. He’s a fucking fluffybunny. I hope he doesn’t achieve shit, I really do. Probably a lot more than you guys down south.
But he might. And that’s just the fucking stark reality.
-
@majorrage I think the "effective" question @mariner4life was asking was more around the endgame, rather than just "winning" this war.
Like what is he going to be left with after this? He can't effect regime change then maintain control over all of Ukraine, it's too big and there will be constant attacks. Does he retreat and control some select cities and ports? Maybe, but then what is he up to right now?
And what about the effect on Russia itself? The economy is in free-fall, so many people affected by his actions. Not just the billionaires, but the common folk and the large corporations and the small businesses.
It's really hard to see how there is a positive outcome in all of this for Putin.
Which brings us full circle to him appearing increasingly more deranged and having control over a vast array of nuclear weapons.
Terrifying
We need a Russian Lee Harvey Oswald, and soon.
-
@majorrage I think the "effective" question @mariner4life was asking was more around the endgame, rather than just "winning" this war.
Yes, I totally get that, but wasn't the point I was making.
Like what is he going to be left with after this? He can't effect regime change then maintain control over all of Ukraine, it's too big and there will be constant attacks. Does he retreat and control some select cities and ports? Maybe, but then what is he up to right now?
I have no idea what his plan is. Plenty of pundits think he's trying to use force to get the USSR back as one. They might be right. He clearly doesn't care about a world united against him, mainly because he thinks that the status quo anyway, I suspect.
And what about the effect on Russia itself? The economy is in free-fall, so many people affected by his actions. Not just the billionaires, but the common folk and the large corporations and the small businesses.
Yep, the people that get fucked the most in war, are the general folks. Putin doesn't see it like that. He see's his oil reserves, his accrued cash reserves and thinks he can hold the world to ransom. He think the price the rest of Europe / planet will pay for it is greater than the effect of the sanctions on his people. The obvious point is that nobody needed to get fucked on.
It's really hard to see how there is a positive outcome in all of this for Putin.
Which brings us full circle to him appearing increasingly more deranged and having control over a vast array of nuclear weapons.
Terrifying
We need a Russian Lee Harvey Oswald, and soon.
I did choose my words carefully, I didn't say he was amazing, and I didn't say for the longer term. I said effective & at the moment.
Reality is he thinks he's got China in his pocket, India in a slighty lesser, but still positive position & holds Europe to ransom with energy. This isn't a drunken crazy idea came from nowhere. This is a longer term plan where he's been strategic in his movements & relationships. I have no issues with labelling this effective leadership. It's not an endorsement.
-
I guess where we differ is
I would define an effective leader is one who does good things for the people he leads
None of this is good for them. They couldn't give a fuck about running the Ukraine. They (probably) weren't afraid they were about to cop missiles from the west.
Instead they get fucked by sanctions
Their economy is tanked.
Their ability to do business in the world is severely hampered at best
They can't even log in to porn hubAnd for what??
-
-
@mariner4life said in Ukraine:
I guess where we differ is
I would define an effective leader is one who does good things for the people he leads
None of this is good for them. They couldn't give a fuck about running the Ukraine. They (probably) weren't afraid they were about to cop missiles from the west.
Instead they get fucked by sanctions
Their economy is tanked.
Their ability to do business in the world is severely hampered at best
They can't even log in to porn hubAnd for what??
I think what you are saying is you define effective as good. That's where we differ. I would also define Hitler as a very effective leader.
No wrong or right here, but we are on the same page for the most part Disappointingly, feel like a good stoush.
-
@mariner4life said in Ukraine:
I guess where we differ is
I would define an effective leader is one who does good things for the people he leads
None of this is good for them. They couldn't give a fuck about running the Ukraine. They (probably) weren't afraid they were about to cop missiles from the west.
Instead they get fucked by sanctions
Their economy is tanked.
Their ability to do business in the world is severely hampered at best
They can't even log in to porn hubAnd for what??
They will starve because their currency is fucked. Meanwhile Putin's megarich pals all have their ill-gotten gains stashed offshore
-
@mariner4life said in Ukraine:
I guess where we differ is
I would define an effective leader is one who does good things for the people he leads
None of this is good for them. They couldn't give a fuck about running the Ukraine. They (probably) weren't afraid they were about to cop missiles from the west.
Instead they get fucked by sanctions
Their economy is tanked.
Their ability to do business in the world is severely hampered at best
They can't even log in to porn hubAnd for what??
They will starve because their currency is fucked. Meanwhile Putin's megarich pals all have their ill-gotten gains stashed offshore
Yep. And the west is fully aware of this, which is why sanctions are coming thick and fast at them.
-
@majorrage said in Ukraine:
@mariner4life said in Ukraine:
I guess where we differ is
I would define an effective leader is one who does good things for the people he leads
None of this is good for them. They couldn't give a fuck about running the Ukraine. They (probably) weren't afraid they were about to cop missiles from the west.
Instead they get fucked by sanctions
Their economy is tanked.
Their ability to do business in the world is severely hampered at best
They can't even log in to porn hubAnd for what??
They will starve because their currency is fucked. Meanwhile Putin's megarich pals all have their ill-gotten gains stashed offshore
Indeed.
@mariner4life said in Ukraine:
I guess where we differ is
I would define an effective leader is one who does good things for the people he leads
None of this is good for them. They couldn't give a fuck about running the Ukraine. They (probably) weren't afraid they were about to cop missiles from the west.
Instead they get fucked by sanctions
Their economy is tanked.
Their ability to do business in the world is severely hampered at best
They can't even log in to porn hubAnd for what??
They will starve because their currency is fucked. Meanwhile Putin's megarich pals all have their ill-gotten gains stashed offshore
Yep. And the west is fully aware of this, which is why sanctions are coming thick and fast at them.
I see another oligarch's yacht just got seized, this time in France. This seems like the West's weapon of choice. They could ramp up pressure by issuing a warrant for the arrest of Putin and his cronies as war criminals, seize or freeze all of their assets outside Russia. I don't know if that would be significant pressure for the oligarchy to consider rolling him. In the end will punishing the everyday Russian be enough alone to roll him? Will 2022's VIL stand up?
-
@majorrage said in Ukraine:
This isn't a drunken crazy idea came from nowhere. This is a longer term plan where he's been strategic in his movements & relationships.
I'd argue he may have a plan, but has seriously miscalculated. His strategy - successful to date - has been to cause division in NATO & Europe from energy dependence, cause problems in places like Syria & Mail and salami-slice territory, based on his view that the West is divided and isn't really up to opposing him. He planned for a quick victory and restoring a puppet Ukrainian regime.
The reality is he has united the West, tanked his economy and probably caused a war which will drag on and possibly cause big domestic problems. Added to that, he has woken up Germany militarily and energy-wise and radically changed public opinion on NATO membership in Finland and Norway. Yeah, he'll take over Ukraine, but as a wise old bugger once said winning a war is easy, its winning the victory which is the tricky bit.
The concerning part is what he does in the next year or two and how China reacts as it's becoming clear to me the days of the West tolerating Putin are long gone.
-