Orlando shooting + terrorism thread
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593040" data-time="1467266183">
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<p>Your tolerance for an ideology that preaches murder and homophobia is very high. You also support the KKK?</p>
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<p>And any reformation needs to start somewhere, and that isnt being help by the western apologists.</p>
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<p>If you're so desperate for Islam to reform, then why don't you go to one of their prayer meetings and tell them to get their shit together? Write your local imam a letter explaining you've got a way for them to get out of their bullshit medieval ways and start enjoying bacon.</p>
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<p>Have you even talked to your local MP about the threat of Islam? </p>
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<p>Most of us don't actually have time to give a fuck what Islam or its adherents do. As long as they're not fucking with the secular laws of my country, I'm cool. Same as any religion or group of whacko dickheads. </p>
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<p>When they <em>do</em> start to break the law, then throw the fucking book at them, by all means, and tell them that's not on. Deport them if its called for.</p>
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<p>Likewise, when shouty fucking dickheads start spouting hate crime and destroying mosques, churches, war memorials, or public property, I'm going to tell them they're fluffybunnys as well and should be prosecuted accordingly. The problem with narrow-minded, white trash fuckheads without a clue, is you generally don't get to deport them.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="593041" data-time="1467266244">
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<p>Isn't that attacking Muslims as an entire group?</p>
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<p>I am not limiting it to them though. Non Muslims like some in this thread are included. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593040" data-time="1467266183">
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<p>That I am clamouring for? Yes.. the question is .. why arent you? You dont think it needs it? Your tolerance for an ideology that preaches murder and homophobia is very high. You also support the KKK?</p>
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<p><strong>And any reformation needs to start somewhere</strong>, and that isnt being help by the western apologists.</p>
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<p>The reformation occurred because of criticism and a schism <em>within christianity. </em>I'd imagine if the leaders of Islam had criticised Christianity they'd have got a "get the fuck out of town" from the Pope and started another round of crusades. The islamic reformation (if it ever happens) will need to be generated from within</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593047" data-time="1467267699">
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<p>I am not limiting it to them though. Non Muslims like some in this thread are included. </p>
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<p>Is that meant to make it better?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="593048" data-time="1467267747">
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<p>The reformation occurred because of criticism and a schism <em>within christianity. </em>I'd imagine if the leaders of Islam had criticised Christianity they'd have started another round of crusades. The islamic reformation (if it ever happens) will need to be generated from within</p>
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<p>Difficult given the size of their schism and its timing (early on in formation of the belief system). Also they have less of a hierarchical nature to their structure so that complicates matters.</p>
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<p>The Christian church was a big unit, then bits broke off. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593046" data-time="1467267693">
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<p>If you're so desperate for Islam to reform, then why don't you go to one of their prayer meetings and tell them to get their shit together? Write your local imam a letter explaining you've got a way for them to get out of their bullshit medieval ways and start enjoying bacon.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Have you even talked to your local MP about the threat of Islam? </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Most of us don't actually have time to give a fuck what Islam or its adherents do, as long as they're not fucking with the secular laws of my country. Same as any religion or group of whacko dickheads. Organised crime, bikers, drug dealers, whatever.</p>
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<p>When they <em>do</em> start to break the law, then throw the fucking book at them, by all means, and tell them that's not on. Deport them if its called for.</p>
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<p>Likewise, when shouty fucking dickheads start spouting hate crime and destroying mosques, I'm going to tell them they're fluffybunnies as well and should be prosecuted accordingly. The problem with narrow-minded, white trash fuckheads without a clue, is you generally don't get to deport them.</p>
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<p>I do my bit to to tangibly support free speech dont worry about that. I have little chance of getting Muslims to change, I see the first step being to educate the apologists and promote free speech without being shouted down by regressive lefties screaming 'BIGOT' the first chance they get. Once it is as normal to criticise and critique Islam as it other religions, then Muslims will start their own reformations in western countries.</p>
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<p>Interesting that you bought race into the equation with your last sentence. Just an observation.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="593049" data-time="1467267825">
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<p>Is that meant to make it better?</p>
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<p>Why should I care if you think it is better? Better is subjective term.</p>
<p>I was simply explaining your assumptional mistake.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593050" data-time="1467267868">
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<p>Difficult given the size of their schism and its timing (early on in formation of the belief system). Also they have less of a hierarchical nature to their structure so that complicates matters.</p>
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<p>The Christian church was a big unit, then bits broke off. </p>
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<p>The point I was making was that the changes were sparked from within, not from the outside</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593020" data-time="1467260515">
<div> <strong>I am tolerant of Muslims, I am not tolerant of the ideology</strong></div>
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<div>So by definition all muslims practice Islam/<em>the ideology</em>, so.....?</div> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593051" data-time="1467267920">
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<p>Interesting that you bought race into the equation with your last sentence. Just an observation.</p>
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<p>No, it isn't actually, when you consider a lot of the damage to mosques is done by ignorant, white fuckheads who were born here. They don't agree with your push for free speech and reformation BTW - they're just uneducated, usually white, and generally fuckheads and deserve due investigation and punishment as the law proscribes.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="593055" data-time="1467268149">
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<div>So by definition all muslims practice Islam/<em>the ideology</em>, so.....?</div>
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<p>If they don't openly criticise the hateful elements of it.....</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593056" data-time="1467268175">
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<p>No, it isn't actually, when you consider a lot of the damage to mosques is done by ignorant, white fuckheads who were born here. They don't agree with your push for free speech and reformation BTW - they're just uneducated, usually white, and generally fuckheads and deserve due investigation and punishment as the law proscribes.</p>
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<p>Again.. interesting that you bought race into it.....</p>
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<p>I am not bothered over it though, just found it interesting as to how colour of skin seems to a semi important element for on that topic.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593058" data-time="1467269056">
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<p>If they don't openly criticise the hateful elements of it.....</p>
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<p><img src="https://cdn.meme.am/instances/26028065.jpg" alt="26028065.jpg"></p> -
<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593059" data-time="1467269209"><p>Again.. interesting that you bought race into it.....<br><br>
I am not bothered over it though, just found it interesting as to how colour of skin seems to a semi important element for on that topic.</p></blockquote>
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Not bothered by it, but felt the need to point it out, then fell back to passive-aggressive mode once I explained myself.<br><br>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593062" data-time="1467270107">
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Not bothered by it, but felt the need to point it out, then fell back to passive-aggressive mode once I explained myself.<br><br>
Right.</p>
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<p>You explained yourself??? I must have missed that, I just saw you repeat yourself.</p> -
<p>I'm trying to get my head around what the argument is here.</p>
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<p>BSG, myself and a few others say Islam is a barbaric, hateful ideology that promotes sexism, homophobia and racism. That is categorically a fact. It is written in the Koran. There is just no debating that.</p>
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<p>Others argue against us by saying that not all Muslims practice those specific parts of Islam, so don't tar all Muslims with the same brush. They also claim the "majority" of Muslims are like this. I think that is a generalisation, which is why I provided the Saudi Arabia example. Nobody can tell me what each and every Muslim thinks, and I don't presume to know either. Some follow it to the letter, some don't. It's fair to say that most in Western countries don't actively practice the parts that are against the law. Great.</p>
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<p>But none of that changes the fact that Islam is a barbaric, hateful ideology that promotes sexism, homophobia and racism.</p>
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<p>So we're in this big debate but we are arguing points that are not mutually exclusive. Both are true. Islam is an awful ideology, AND not all Muslims practice the really bad parts of it.</p>
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<p>That's not that difficult to understand is it?</p>
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<p>Of course if you criticise Islam then plenty of Muslims will take offence. But that's their problem. I criticise people's ideas at work on a regular basis, I'm sure some of them take offense, but that's their problem, I'm not letting them do retarded shit that makes so sense because I don't want to offend them. You have the right to have your ideas, but your ideas themselves don't have rights and are open to criticism. Why does religion, and in particular Islam get such a free pass?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593039" data-time="1467266072">
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<p>Yes apologist, regressive left. You wanted to make this about me, you started with the name calling and absurd narrative. You are classic regressive left. You wanted to start dishing out pejorative terms, learn to take some back.</p>
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<p>I said that in a response to someone asking how a ban on Islamic immigrants from coming to NZ. Is wanting to control immigration of people who support an ideology of Homophobia, racism and sexism .. bigoted? Is giving skilled migrants also bigoted? What about the good character requirement.. also bigoted?</p>
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<p>I am not putting muslims into baskets, that is your modus operandi, I am criticising an ideology and those that follow it, support it, refuse to criticise it or attack critics of it.</p>
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<p>I am still waiting for your proof of assertion. It should be soooo easy.... unless you were just attacking a straw man?</p>
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<p>let's recap. i used the word bigotry because in response to an article about innocent muslim americans being harassed and mistreated your response was to state that you had no sympathy for them, and to go directly to the straw man with <em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Islam just says to murder gays. How dare people criticise that??</span></em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"> which was of course said by nobody ever. </span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"><em>Must be horrible to have all those nasty words said about your religion. Much better to ahve bullets and bombs thrown at you</em>.</span><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">... well you must be stoked about istanbul then eh? excuse me for not noticing your outpouring of sympathy for those innocent muslims killed by bad muslims - do you think they deserved it for following a hateful religion? or is it all just a bit confusing when some of 'them' are the victims and some of 'them' are the bad guys?</span></p>
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<p>skilled migrants, good character etc is discrimination in its positive form. keeping out all muslims because some are bad is bigotry. not real complicated. it's not like you were advocating questions on people's beliefs on racism/sexism etc - i'd be fine with that - you were advocating blanket persecution on the basis of religion. bigotry, in other words. putting all muslims in one basket, in other words. attacking the people rather than the doctrine.</p>
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<p>i don't mind what you call me in the least, it is just the hypocrisy of calling me names and having a go at me for labelling you at the same time that I thought ought to be pointed out. apologist is a bit weird though, i'm pretty outspoken on sexism, racism etc and strongly believe that religion should never be used as an excuse for these - I'd consider myself anti-islam as practiced by many people for those reasons, but as long as people aren't hurting or oppressing others then they're fine by me. </p>
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<p><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">incidentally, is it even possible to be classic regressive left? it's a term that's only been thrown around for a couple of years. </span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="593069" data-time="1467273174">
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<p>I'm trying to get my head around what the argument is here.</p>
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<p>BSG, myself and a few others say Islam is a barbaric, hateful ideology that promotes sexism, homophobia and racism. That is categorically a fact. It is written in the Koran. There is just no debating that. <strong>The qu'ran does promote sexism, homophobia and racism. Agree, no count abut that. So does the bible. There are certain Islamic preachers and States that promote many of those beliefs. There are some Christian churches that do also. There are many muslim countries and preachers that do not promote those beliefs. The real issue here is the numbers in that there are large swathes of Muslims in countries that are tied to those beliefs whereas this is much less so in the Christian world. The point though is that, in the main those countries do not try and impose those beliefs elsewhere. for sure there are some fanatics that do, but a minority. Do you tar all Muslims with the same brush regardless of where they live and how their lives are being led?</strong></p>
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<p>Others argue against us by saying that not all Muslims practice those specific parts of Islam, so don't tar all Muslims with the same brush. They also claim the "majority" of Muslims are like this. I think that is a generalisation, which is why I provided the Saudi Arabia example. Nobody can tell me what each and every Muslim thinks, and I don't presume to know either. Some follow it to the letter, some don't. It's fair to say that most in Western countries don't actively practice the parts that are against the law. Great. <strong>You use the word generalisation here and...</strong></p>
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<p>But none of that changes the fact that Islam is a barbaric, hateful ideology that promotes sexism, homophobia and racism. <strong>Then promote it here?</strong></p>
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<p>So we're in this big debate but we are arguing points that are not mutually exclusive. Both are true. Islam is an awful ideology, AND not all Muslims practice the really bad parts of it. <strong>It is awful in parts if taken literally as is Christianity and Judaism. Again the problem is numbers in that there are whole countries that more or less adhere to the awful parts</strong></p>
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<p>That's not that difficult to understand is it? <strong>No</strong></p>
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<p>Of course if you criticise Islam then plenty of Muslims will take offence. But that's their problem. I criticise people's ideas at work on a regular basis, I'm sure some of them take offense, but that's their problem, I'm not letting them do retarded shit that makes so sense because I don't want to offend them. You have the right to have your ideas, but your ideas themselves don't have rights and are open to criticism. Why does religion, and in particular Islam get such a free pass? <strong>Couldn't agree more with this. No religion should be above criticism. But that's seemingly our problem.</strong></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="593069" data-time="1467273174">
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<p>I'm trying to get my head around what the argument is here.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>BSG, myself and a few others say Islam is a barbaric, hateful ideology that promotes sexism, homophobia and racism. That is categorically a fact. It is written in the Koran. There is just no debating that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Others argue against us by saying that not all Muslims practice those specific parts of Islam, so don't tar all Muslims with the same brush. They also claim the "majority" of Muslims are like this. I think that is a generalisation, which is why I provided the Saudi Arabia example. Nobody can tell me what each and every Muslim thinks, and I don't presume to know either. Some follow it to the letter, some don't. It's fair to say that most in Western countries don't actively practice the parts that are against the law. Great.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But none of that changes the fact that Islam is a barbaric, hateful ideology that promotes sexism, homophobia and racism.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So we're in this big debate but we are arguing points that are not mutually exclusive. Both are true. Islam is an awful ideology, AND not all Muslims practice the really bad parts of it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>That's not that difficult to understand is it?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Of course if you criticise Islam then plenty of Muslims will take offence. But that's their problem. I criticise people's ideas at work on a regular basis, I'm sure some of them take offense, but that's their problem, I'm not letting them do retarded shit that makes so sense because I don't want to offend them. You have the right to have your ideas, but your ideas themselves don't have rights and are open to criticism. Why does religion, and in particular Islam get such a free pass?</p>
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<p>good points. you need to add the word 'literal' i think - plenty of muslims practice a non-literal islamic ideology that is not hateful; and obviously behaving in a manner literally proscribed by the koran would be totally fucked. </p>
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<p>religion does not get a free pass from me, and criticising the book is sweet as with me too - it's outdated dangerous batshit crazy nonsense after all.</p>
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<p>what i can't abide is people making assumptions and treating good people like shit because of what the book says, when those good people don't even follow what the damn book says.</p>