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@Magpie_in_aus said in Campbell Johnstone:
the player's potential worry within a team environment to come out.
well, if australia is any indication, "christian" pacific islanders don't like it much
but hey, it's not like there are many of those in rugby...
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@mariner4life yeah....but of you're not religous you still have to respect and accept their religous practices (pryaing after a game etc).
I think players will need to take a step forward in accepting others for who they are and what they believe.
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@OleOleOle said in Campbell Johnstone:
I think
playerspeople will need to take a step forward in accepting others for who they are and what they believeFixed it.
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@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Magpie_in_aus said in Campbell Johnstone:
the player's potential worry within a team environment to come out.
well, if australia is any indication, "christian" pacific islanders don't like it much
but hey, it's not like there are many of those in rugby...
I think there's a profound difference between accepting and being forced to celebrate.
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@antipodean said in Campbell Johnstone:
@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Magpie_in_aus said in Campbell Johnstone:
the player's potential worry within a team environment to come out.
well, if australia is any indication, "christian" pacific islanders don't like it much
but hey, it's not like there are many of those in rugby...
I think there's a profound difference between accepting and being forced to celebrate.
and i disagree
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@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@antipodean said in Campbell Johnstone:
@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Magpie_in_aus said in Campbell Johnstone:
the player's potential worry within a team environment to come out.
well, if australia is any indication, "christian" pacific islanders don't like it much
but hey, it's not like there are many of those in rugby...
I think there's a profound difference between accepting and being forced to celebrate.
and i disagree
If I'm prepared to let people live their best lives, I don't see why I should have to participate in it to the extent others determine. Surely that's for me to decide? Or do we have to climb on the float next year as well?
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@antipodean said in Campbell Johnstone:
@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@antipodean said in Campbell Johnstone:
@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Magpie_in_aus said in Campbell Johnstone:
the player's potential worry within a team environment to come out.
well, if australia is any indication, "christian" pacific islanders don't like it much
but hey, it's not like there are many of those in rugby...
I think there's a profound difference between accepting and being forced to celebrate.
and i disagree
If I'm prepared to let people live their best lives, I don't see why I should have to participate in it to the extent others determine. Surely that's for me to decide? Or do we have to climb on the float next year as well?
i knew this is where we would end up
last post on it, it's been done to death. If players were forced to go on the Manly float in teh parade then that's maybe a bit over the top
If players were handed a jersey with small rainbows instead of skinny white stripes, then maybe that's not such a big fucking deal.
The Taipans just went through the same thing because 3 players (and i have a pretty good idea which 3) wouldn't wear one that had a slightly different coloured fucking Champion symbol. The champion symbol is the size of a 50c piece. That doesn't seem very fucking accepting.
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@mariner4life so we merely have a different opinion on where the line is. Like almost everyone else on Earth.
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@OleOleOle I dont think any of those guys would have a problem playing alongside a gay dude. they simply dont want to represent via jerseys etc etc.
Christian conservatives simply view them as sinners, much like many other things.
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@muddyriver said in Campbell Johnstone:
@OleOleOle I dont think any of those guys would have a problem playing alongside a gay dude. they simply dont want to represent via jerseys etc etc.
That's my experience at a church school.
The Polynesian kids really don't care about your sexual choices, if you don't force it. They strongly dislike being told that what they believe is wrong and that they be forced to wear a symbol to say that.
If people want to be Marxists, I won't stop them. If my workplace made me wear a hammer and sickle emblem, I'd be getting a new job.
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@Chester-Draws said in Campbell Johnstone:
If people want to be Marxists,
Surely you can see the problem with your analogy?
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@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@antipodean said in Campbell Johnstone:
@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@antipodean said in Campbell Johnstone:
@mariner4life said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Magpie_in_aus said in Campbell Johnstone:
the player's potential worry within a team environment to come out.
well, if australia is any indication, "christian" pacific islanders don't like it much
but hey, it's not like there are many of those in rugby...
I think there's a profound difference between accepting and being forced to celebrate.
and i disagree
If I'm prepared to let people live their best lives, I don't see why I should have to participate in it to the extent others determine. Surely that's for me to decide? Or do we have to climb on the float next year as well?
i knew this is where we would end up
last post on it, it's been done to death. If players were forced to go on the Manly float in teh parade then that's maybe a bit over the top
If players were handed a jersey with small rainbows instead of skinny white stripes, then maybe that's not such a big fucking deal.
The Taipans just went through the same thing because 3 players (and i have a pretty good idea which 3) wouldn't wear one that had a slightly different coloured fucking Champion symbol. The champion symbol is the size of a 50c piece. That doesn't seem very fucking accepting.
I see your point on that, but it does cross an important line between being accepting of other people, and actively participating in and celebrating them. It's a very small step, granted, but once that line is crossed it becomes very grey as to how much they are expected to participate in it is. So while I pretty strongly disagree with pretty much all of the religious views of players like that, I completely understand why they would take a stand on it. I really don't think forcing people to celebrate the LGBT community is having a positive effect on views towards them.
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@Nepia said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Chester-Draws said in Campbell Johnstone:
If people want to be Marxists,
Surely you can see the problem with your analogy?
I'm not suggesting that people choose to be gay. I just wanted an analogy that avoided the white heat that sexuality brings, especially in the world at the moment where even the slightest criticism of any sexual behaviour is read as some sort of "phobia".
I have no interest in a workplace that makes me celebrate anything I am opposed to morally. In my case Hammers and Sickles would trigger that.
Whereas I would just be irritated by rainbows because they have now just become tedious virtue symbols. (See BMW putting rainbows on their Twitter accounts, except in the Middle East, because they actually don't have any moral courage at all.)
You are welcome to find a better analogy.
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@No-Quarter said in Campbell Johnstone:
I see your point on that, but it does cross an important line between being accepting of other people, and actively participating in and celebrating them. It's a very small step, granted, but once that line is crossed it becomes very grey as to how much they are expected to participate in it is. So while I pretty strongly disagree with pretty much all of the religious views of players like that, I completely understand why they would take a stand on it. I really don't think forcing people to celebrate the LGBT community is having a positive effect on views towards them.
When gay rights first became an issue, the refrain was "we just want equality". As it gained weight, some conservatives suggested mockingly that it would soon become compulsory. They were scoffed at, and said, no, "they just deserve equality".
Well we have reached a point where it is often effectively compulsory to celebrate gayness. We are only one step off what the conservatives mocked and which their opponents said would never happen.
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@Chester-Draws I don't think it's about celebrating gayness at all. Those rainbow jerseys are about celebrating inclusivity.
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@Chester-Draws said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Nepia said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Chester-Draws said in Campbell Johnstone:
If people want to be Marxists,
Surely you can see the problem with your analogy?
I'm not suggesting that people choose to be gay. I just wanted an analogy that avoided the white heat that sexuality brings, especially in the world at the moment where even the slightest criticism of any sexual behaviour is read as some sort of "phobia".
I have no interest in a workplace that makes me celebrate anything I am opposed to morally. In my case Hammers and Sickles would trigger that.
Whereas I would just be irritated by rainbows because they have now just become tedious virtue symbols. (See BMW putting rainbows on their Twitter accounts, except in the Middle East, because they actually don't have any moral courage at all.)
You are welcome to find a better analogy.
I don't think you can avoid the "white heat that sexuality" (not sexual behaviour) brings when making your analogy because sexuality is the point in this case.
I don't want to find a better analogy, you're the one making the case for it. As I read it, you believe that any moral objection is fine in taking a stand against a workplace?
Do you extend the moral objection theory to indigenous and woman's round's too? Can players choose not to work those weeks too? What about Pasifika rounds?
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@Nepia said in Campbell Johnstone:
I don't think you can avoid the "white heat that sexuality" (not sexual behaviour) brings when making your analogy because sexuality is the point in this case.
I don't want to find a better analogy, you're the one making the case for it. As I read it, you believe that any moral objection is fine in taking a stand against a workplace?
Do you extend the moral objection theory to indigenous and woman's round's too? Can players choose not to work those weeks too? What about Pasifika rounds?
If people want to take a moral stand against it and not participate in those rounds, then following the same logic this should not be a problem.
I think you'd be pretty much so unemployable if you did, but that is another discussion.
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@MajorRage said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Nepia said in Campbell Johnstone:
I don't think you can avoid the "white heat that sexuality" (not sexual behaviour) brings when making your analogy because sexuality is the point in this case.
I don't want to find a better analogy, you're the one making the case for it. As I read it, you believe that any moral objection is fine in taking a stand against a workplace?
Do you extend the moral objection theory to indigenous and woman's round's too? Can players choose not to work those weeks too? What about Pasifika rounds?
If people want to take a moral stand against it and not participate in those rounds, then following the same logic this should not be a problem.
I think you'd be pretty much so unemployable if you did, but that is another discussion.
Isn’t that exactly the case? No one is being denied an opinion or action but the consequences may not be to their liking?
But yes, I have a problem with the “get out clause” of beliefs (I’m not sure we are talking morals here but beliefs that form moral judgments). Beliefs aren’t necessarily factual.
I agree with @Nepia that anyone could conjure up a belief to support their actions and we know that doesn’t fly by n reality. -
@Stargazer said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Chester-Draws I don't think it's about celebrating gayness at all. Those rainbow jerseys are about celebrating inclusivity.
I agree with your first line. I think what the NBL has done over the last week has been very respectful and the story of Trevor Torrance and previously Isaac Humphries have been educative.
I know that there are reservations from some about wearing (or associating with) the rainbow not because they aren’t inclusive, tolerant or kind, but because of concerns of what is sometimes done under the banner of the rainbow symbol.
I’m not here to sensationalise this but this came up on Twitter and there would be many that are inclusive and respectful that would have concerns with this and the rainbow symbol is front and centre of it. I can’t speak for all who opposed wearing the Manly jersey, but I do know that one of them had these concerns and that they all weren’t coming from the same point of view on it.
Something I would put in a similar vein is that during the Black Lives Matter protests etc, I spoke with a good friend who’s been in Australia for a couple years playing basketball, he’s black and from Baltimore. One of the first things he said to me when I asked him what he thought about what was happening, “I wouldn’t be wearing that %#$? BLM t-shirt!” For him that “movement” (how he described it) was a problem but yet he felt pretty passionately about issues to do violence, injustice and racism and had been active in his community back home. Even though pro sports people, some that he knew, and some of his friends were all wearing it, he and many of his family didn’t.
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@ACT-Crusader agree completely, the problem with movements like this is they get used by a wide range of people for a wide range of purposes, so giving blanket approval and celebration of it becomes difficult. That picture above is inappropriate to put it lightly. I also regularly see videos of drag queens performing sexually explicit routines at "family friendly" events in front of young children, and the rainbow flag is again front and centre of that performance.
Further to that, LGBT itself is a very wide group of people with varying beliefs, and that's not including the many other initials that have been added to that initialism (not acronym, thanks @Kruse). The Transgender part really stands out as being a very different movement to the gay/lesbian/bi part, I don't know why that has been tacked on and I see some groups are trying to exclude that as Transgender people face a completely different set of challenges in society.
As usual it's not nearly as simple as people make out (E.G. person that wears rainbow = inclusive, person that doesn't = bigot), but that level of nuance is never properly acknowledged in the public debate and mainstream media outlets.
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions