Bastille day truck crash
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604379" data-time="1470739717">
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<p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive. </p>
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<p>I think this is good, particularly the role of politics and the presence of hideous leaders and governing parties and organisations.</p>
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<p>I believe these people make a scapegoat out of religions, which while nuts (religions that is), are still a pretty harmless way most of the world live their lives</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604383" data-time="1470740202">
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<p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p>
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<p>The Indochinese also seem remarkably adverse to committing acts of terror against innocent civilians despite the shit inflicted on them by both their former colonial masters and the US. Actually a Vietnamese guy was imprisoned for terrorism charges. Want to guess what his religion was?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604379" data-time="1470739717"><p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive.<br></p></blockquote>The west have a poor record in this regard. They have tended to install and/or support strong leaders who can ensure a stable flow of oil as opposed to leaders that are necessarily moderates or reformers. At this point in time I don't think Saudi or Qatar qualify by your criteria
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604386" data-time="1470740781">
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<p>You are dedicated to banging on about how bad Islam is, and certainly you can provide examples, like Serbia, where the west inflicted death and destruction without revenge in the form of terrorism against the west. However it doesn't get you any closer to understanding the nature of the enemy and how we might overcome them.</p>
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<p>I've pointed this out before but I'm not banging on about all of islam at all , the vast majority of muslims get on with their lives , raise their kids go to work and chill with their friends without feeling the need to ever but on a suicide vest just like we do. I don't buy this narrative that we bought the shit the radicals are dumping on us on ourselves though especially in light of the way they are treating other muslims who have bugger al but hold a different view of their religion .</p>
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<p>Overcome them?Right now training Iraqi troops , drone strikes and bombing Isis strongholds seems to be doing a good job of overcoming them as their caliphate shrinks day by day. As for understanding them , well they want us to convert to their way of thinking or die. That seems to be about it really, not much room for negotiation there.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604390" data-time="1470741490">
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<p>The west have a poor record in this regard. They have tended to install and/or support strong leaders who can ensure a stable flow of oil as opposed to leaders that are necessarily moderates or reformers. At this point in time I don't think Saudi or Qatar qualify by your criteria</p>
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<p>Who was the last leader the west installed?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="604357" data-time="1470735174">
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<p>I'd wager there's a few who think it's an example of a hateful ideology that seeks to discriminate and kill those who do not share the same values.</p>
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<p>Sorry to bring in an alternative point of view.</p>
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<p><strong>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</strong></p>
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<p>There's not really much you can say in response to this is there?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604393" data-time="1470741647"><p>Who was the last leader the west installed?</p></blockquote>Karzai? In terms of the installed part I was thinking of someone like the shah of Iran or Saddam until he lost his privileges. If we're talking about stamping out proliferation of Islam don't you find it peculiar that the west cosies up to both countries I mentioned, who happen to be two of the biggest supporters of the spread of fundamentalist Islam in the world?
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604392" data-time="1470741595"><p>I've pointed this out before but I'm not banging on about all of islam at all , the vast majority of muslims get on with their lives , raise their kids go to work and chill with their friends without feeling the need to ever but on a suicide vest just like we do. I don't buy this narrative that we bought the shit the radicals are dumping on us on ourselves though especially in light of the way they are treating other muslims who have bugger al but hold a different view of their religion .<br>
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Overcome them?Right now training Iraqi troops , drone strikes and bombing Isis strongholds seems to be doing a good job of overcoming them as their caliphate shrinks day by day. As for understanding them , well they want us to convert to their way of thinking or die. That seems to be about it really, not much room for negotiation there.</p></blockquote>i don't think you was the article reprobate posted, it was an interesting interview from a member of ISIS -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604397" data-time="1470742120">
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<p>Karzai? In terms of the installed part I was thinking of someone like the shah of Iran or Saddam until he lost his privileges. <strong>If we're talking about stamping out proliferation of Islam</strong> don't you find it peculiar that the west cosies up to both countries I mentioned, who happen to be two of the biggest supporters of the spread of fundamentalist Islam in the world?</p>
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<p>Whos talking about stamping out the proliferation of islam? You won't find any argument from me about the Saudis, I'm hoping electric cars eventually make them poor and irrelevant again. The US has been reaching out Iran at long last which is making the Saudis squeal .</p>
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<p>Karzai was voted in wasn't he? The Shah was back in the 50s , I don't think the west had much to do with Saddam taking over iraq as he sucked up to the soviets as well.</p> -
<p><strong>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</strong></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604395" data-time="1470741800">
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<p>There's not really much you can say in response to this is there?</p>
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<p>True, a churlish reply from me mate. I defo concede that</p>
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<p>In my opinion (whatever that's worth) it does satirise a lot of what I sense on these threads though.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604399" data-time="1470742312">
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<p>i don't think you was the article reprobate posted, it was an interesting interview from a member of ISIS</p>
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<p>I missed it, cheers it was a good read. There's been some good stories in the Atlantic and Longform lately too. One was from an anti Isis militia stuck outside their home city and they weren't allowed to go in and fight until they US air force and liaison troops had caught up with them to support an attack to take the whole city because if they didn't go in with their support and stalled or lost the initiative Isis would take out awful reprisals on the people left there. Most of which were the militias family. Not sure how that fits in with the "all the wests bombing is making more terrorists" narrative but you have to feel for the guys sitting outside the city wondering what is happening to their family. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="604404" data-time="1470742748">
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<p><strong>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</strong></p>
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<p>True, a churlish reply from me mate. I defo concede that</p>
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<p>In my opinion (whatever that's worth) it does satirise a lot of what I sense on these threads though.</p>
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<p>Go through the thread and dig out the posts that say all islam is bad. I hope we don't have to point out every page or two that no one is actually saying that.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604407" data-time="1470743289"><p>Go through the thread and dig out the posts that say all islam is bad. I hope we don't have to point out every page or two that no one is actually saying that.</p></blockquote>
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hateful<br>
ˈheɪtfʊl,-f(ə)l/Submit<br>
adjective<br>
arousing, deserving of, or filled with hatred.<br>
"that hateful arrogant woman"<br>
informal<br>
very unpleasant.<br>
"a hateful dress"<br>
synonyms: detestable, horrible, horrid, unpleasant, awful, nasty, disagreeable, despicable, objectionable, insufferable, revolting, rotten, loathsome, abhorrent, abominable, damnable, execrable, odious, repugnant, repellent, repulsive, disgusting, distasteful, obnoxious, offensive, foul, vile, heinous; More<br><br>
Will that do or does the word all disqualify that?<br><br>
Similar to how my use of the word sense disqualifies your pedantry<br><br>
Actually nevermindthese discussions are all bullshit. My fault for not reading the fine print -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604383" data-time="1470740202">
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<p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p>
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<p>That was a civil war, the Serbs got what they wanted - an independant Serbia. Why would they carry on commiting terror? The IRA stopped being terrorists when they got what they wanted. As did the Stern Gang, the Yogoslav partisans etc. The Kurds in Turkey pulled back massively when peace talks began. Segment Iraq into 3 federal states with a safe area full of Sunni's with jobs etc you'd virtually destroy ISIS overnight.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="604419" data-time="1470746114">
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<p>hateful<br>
ˈheɪtfʊl,-f(ə)l/Submit<br>
adjective<br>
arousing, deserving of, or filled with hatred.<br>
"that hateful arrogant woman"<br>
informal<br>
very unpleasant.<br>
"a hateful dress"<br>
synonyms: detestable, horrible, horrid, unpleasant, awful, nasty, disagreeable, despicable, objectionable, insufferable, revolting, rotten, loathsome, abhorrent, abominable, damnable, execrable, odious, repugnant, repellent, repulsive, disgusting, distasteful, obnoxious, offensive, foul, vile, heinous; More<br><br>
Will that do or does the word all disqualify that?<br><br>
Similar to how my use of the word sense disqualifies your pedantry<br><br>
Actually nevermindthese discussions are all bullshit. My fault for not reading the fine print</p>
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<p>Did anyone say all of Islam is hateful? Nope, its been specifically directed at the the nutters.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604453" data-time="1470762560">
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<p>That was a civil war, the Serbs got what they wanted - an independant Serbia. Why would they carry on commiting terror? The IRA stopped being terrorists when they got what they wanted. As did the Stern Gang, the Yogoslav partisans etc. The Kurds in Turkey pulled back massively when peace talks began. Segment Iraq into 3 federal states with a safe area full of Sunni's with jobs etc you'd virtually destroy ISIS overnight.</p>
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<p>Thats not what happened was it? The serbs had to leave Kosovo which is not what they wanted, it was either that or there'd be more bombing. Which is used to excuse jihadists waging war on us , we bomb them [be as vague as possible when using this one] so they attack us.</p>
<p>There was an upside for everyone though as Yugo production was stopped forever after the factory got flattened.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604379" data-time="1470739717">
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<p>I 100% agree with your overall point.</p>
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<p>And I very much agree with Ali (and usually with her REALLY right wing husband). Where I veer off is the idea that Islam is getting worse, and that Islam is the only issue here. There's more reform now - and reform at high levels, than at any time in the history of the religion.</p>
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<p>Places like Iran especially womens rights have moved massively forward in 20 years. Islam is still horribly backweard, but its a mistake to assume its not modernising because ISIS are cutting peoples heads off. "All the evidence" - what? ISIS? 30 years ago airlines were regularly hijacked, Iran & Iraq were at war killing milliions etc. The idea this is the worst thats happened and hence evidence of a downwards spirial speaks to zero understanding of recent history.</p>
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<p>The rise of ISIS has less to with militant Islam than it has to do with a civil war in Iraq caused by the staggeringly bad government. If you wanted to stop ISIS & could have either imposed a federal government in Iraq that split Sunni / Shia / Kurd zones & ensured the Sunni felt safe & had good governance or de-Islamed the whole country, the former would have worked. The latter wouldn't have done shit. Same in places like Yemen where the uprising AQ have exploited is down to water being withheld from regions the government doesnt like. Egypt may well have a huge uprising in the next 5 years, but it has zero to do with Islam & everything to do with 40% youth unemployment, tho' unquestionably groups like the Muslim Brotherhood will use it & bit'll be branded an Islamist uprising.</p>
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<p>Both of those conflicts are civil wars that AQ & ISIS have stepped into to provide an alternative to dying. And oddly people have gone with them. Huge numbers of ISIS fighters are genuine Jihadi's, but far more are guys with no job, who can't feed their families & whose family have been attacked by Badr Brigade thugs, so they got offered $200 a month to join ISIS, and did. Strip away ISIS & AQ you still have civil wars, you just dont have a label. In effect you have Rwanda where Tutsi & Hutu butchered each other.</p>
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<p><strong>So I guess my point would be - Islam, contrary to common belief is modernising (too slowly, but still moving forward), but "missionary beheaded!" is always going to get more clicks than "Grand Mufti calls for tolerance of gays". And the extremely bad shit happening in several contries has more to do with economics & abysmall government (and even, trigger here, climate change) than it has to do with Islam. </strong></p>
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<p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive. </p>
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<p>Fair enough, and thanks for clarifying your point. I think you are a little more optimistic then me there... :)</p>
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<p>I don't disagree with anything you say about the corrupt and incompetent governments. It would be silly of me to claim the <em>only </em>issue in the ME is Islam. It's a significant one, but nothing is ever black and white. There's a whole clusterfuck of shit going on, and admittedly I am a vehement critic of all things religion (and have done a fair amount of study on that topic) so it is a sticking point for me. I wouldn't claim to have a great understanding of the ecomonic factors that are contributing as well, so appreciate the insights you and others provide from that POV.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604453" data-time="1470762560"><p>
That was a civil war, the Serbs got what they wanted - an independant Serbia. Why would they carry on commiting terror? The IRA stopped being terrorists when they got what they wanted. As did the Stern Gang, the Yogoslav partisans etc. The Kurds in Turkey pulled back massively when peace talks began. Segment Iraq into 3 federal states with a safe area full of Sunni's with jobs etc you'd virtually destroy ISIS overnight.</p></blockquote>
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The Serbs got what they wanted? Wtf? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604453" data-time="1470762560">
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<p>That was a civil war, the Serbs got what they wanted - an independant Serbia.</p>
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<p>I re-read that, I thought Serbia wanted to keep Yugoslavia together so they could maintain control over Croatia</p>