Bastille day truck crash
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="604315" data-time="1470729447">
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<p><strong>Wouldn't tat be an argument from the people who suffered at the hands of American military intervention?</strong><br>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604339" data-time="1470733373">
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<p>In bold , thats just more whattaboutery.</p>
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<p>I'd wager there's a few who think it's an example of a hateful ideology that seeks to discriminate and kill those who do not share the same values.</p>
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<p>Sorry to bring in an alternative point of view.</p>
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<p>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604330" data-time="1470732695">
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<p>No, I didn't, that wasn't the point of the article & (to quote BSG) "I never said that", you & others demanded Muslims try to modernise & seemed to think none were. I pointed out (via the article) that one of the most prominant muslim leaders on the planet is very much doing that, and you skipped over it straight to the bad things still being done. Utterly ignoring the fact that, yes, prominant (and non-prominant) Muslims are moderating & tryingh to modernise. What do you want? An article saying Islam globally now supports gay rights & full equality for women? Thats delusional.</p>
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<p>Oh, right, so when I said:</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="603798" data-time="1470562171">
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<p>I think Muslim's in the west that have reformed their faith are our source of hope that the religion can get better. Those that are coming out and publicly condemning the attacks and saying that the religion needs reform are hugely important. Unfortunately not very many are - not because they don't believe it to be true - but because coming out publicly is fraught with danger. Many people that have publicly said that it needs reform speak of daily death threats ever since.</p>
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<p>You took that to mean "none" and went off on your little mission to prove me wrong. To quote you quoting BSG "I never said that".</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">As for "the other", its anyone not like "us". You can see it right now in a US presidental election. Its human nature, there is a strong drive among humans to not be OK with anyone who is not like them, especially if they have never actually interacted with those people that scare them so much. For example Siam & myself have both spent a lot of time in Muslim countries & have a pretty tolerant view, others on here spent 2 weeks in Dahab & did a camel ride round the pyramids (at most) and demand an end to the scourge of Islam...
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<p>I can assure you I have no drive to not be OK with anyone who is not like me. Just so you know, you and Siam are not the only people on this board that have lived in various countries, I have no idea why you would think you are.</p>
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<p>Also, why did you just cut one paragraph out of my post and ignore the rest? Just to remind you here it is:</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="604257" data-time="1470710825">
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<p>I wasn't talking about combating ISIS, I was talking about moving Islam in a direction that promotes the good parts of it and excludes the insane shit. ISIS is a symptom of Islam in its current form. Trying to combat a symptom won't get you very far, you have to go to the root cause.</p>
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<p>And I've also never claimed this is an overnight thing. I've said multiple times that it has to start now so that future generations don't have to deal with this shit.</p>
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<p>Someone whose views I respect on this is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I'd encourage you to google her and read some of her work. I'll do some of he work for you - here's an article:</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/27/heretic-islam-reformation-ayaan-hirsi-ali-highlights-scale-of-the-task'>https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/27/heretic-islam-reformation-ayaan-hirsi-ali-highlights-scale-of-the-task</a></p>
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<p>You'll have to forgive me if I hold the views of someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who hasn't just "lived in a Muslim country for a while" but actually grown up within an Islamic culture and so has an intimate knowledge of just how fucking bad it is - especially if you are unfortunate enough to be born a female - just a little higher then yours. Here's a couple of quotes from the article that you clearly didn't read (though I'd encourage you to read it all, even if it doesn't back up your own "experiences"):</p>
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<p><strong>Hirsi Ali calls for a wholesale Islamic reformation. It makes no sense, she says, to maintain, as so many politicians and religious leaders do, that the terrorism seen in Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, Syria, Iraq and elsewhere has no religious justification in Islamic texts. “We delude ourselves,†she writes, “that our deadliest foes are somehow not actuated by the ideology they openly affirm.â€</strong></p>
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<p><strong>She quotes chapter and verse of violent exhortations in the Qur’an, and argues that as long as Muslims hold to the notion that the book is the literal word of God then extremists will be able to lay confident claim to theological rationale for their acts. Put simply, her position is that “religious doctrines matter and are in need of reformâ€.</strong></p>
<p><strong>But how? The statistics she assembles do not make optimistic reading. For example, 75% of Pakistanis are in favour of the death penalty for apostasy and sharia law is gaining ground in many Muslim-majority nations.</strong></p>
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<p>To be honest I'm not exactly sure what your overall point is.</p>
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<p>Mine is that Islam more then any other religion is in urgent need of reform due to a wide range of human rights abuses, and that fundamentalists groups like ISIS are inherently linked to the ideology they openly affirm too.</p>
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<p>Yours is... what exactly? That Islam is already in a process of reformation despite all the evidence pointing to the opposite?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604339" data-time="1470733373">
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<p>In bold , thats just more whattaboutery.</p>
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<p>Almost 30000 people is a real threat, just because all but about 700 of them are Johhny foreigners doesn't mean we shouldn't give a shit about them too.</p>
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<p>depends on your view of american intervention being a causative factor for terrorism i think - if it's related it isn't really whatabouttery.</p>
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<p>i do reckon the terrorists think they are fighting back.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="604360" data-time="1470735389">
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<p>depends on your view of american intervention being a causative factor for terrorism i think - if it's related it isn't really whatabouttery.</p>
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<p>i do reckon the terrorists think they are fighting back.</p>
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<p>I don't. Gollum just bought up Rwanda where the west is damned because we didn't intervene enough apparently, now we are being damned for intervening too much and Russia who is bombing the shit out Syria naturally get an inexplicable free pass as usual. So intervene or not? Which one am I supposed to feel guilty about? Its so hard to keep track.</p>
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<p>Bringing up Rwanda or western military intervention is whattaboutery.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604363" data-time="1470736209">
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<p>I don't. Gollum just bought up Rwanda where the west is damned because we didn't intervene enough apparently, now we are being damned for intervening too much and Russia who is bombing the shit out Syria naturally get an inexplicable free pass as usual. So intervene or not? Which one am I supposed to feel guilty about? Its so hard to keep track.</p>
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<p>Bringing up Rwanda or western military intervention is whattaboutery.</p>
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<p>you don't reckon they think they're fighting back?</p>
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<p>i wouldn't give russia a free pass on anything, but they are politically so separate from us that to me their actions are kind of irrelevant - we're not going to follow them into anything.</p>
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<p>i think western involvement in the middle east has been a huge factor in us seeing so many more terrorist attacks in western countries. if i were to think of a way to recruit terrorists in the middle east, bringing that up and casting the west as evil would be my number one tactic, and those who had lost family and friends because of it would be top of my list of potential recruits. </p>
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<p>i'm not even really talking about whether it was right or wrong to intervene, just about what the consequences are. i think allowing immigration (in the way that has occurred) from the middle east after making the decision to intervene was foolhardy in the extreme.</p> -
<p>I really wish you would discover the shift key on your keyboard reprobate. It is as bad as my regular typos.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="604359" data-time="1470735371">
<div><br><p>Mine is that Islam more then any other religion is in urgent need of reform due to a wide range of human rights abuses, and that fundamentalists groups like ISIS are inherently linked to the ideology they openly affirm too.</p>
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<p>Yours is... what exactly? That Islam is already in a process of reformation despite all the evidence pointing to the opposite?</p>
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<p>I 100% agree with your overall point.</p>
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<p>And I very much agree with Ali (and usually with her REALLY right wing husband). Where I veer off is the idea that Islam is getting worse, and that Islam is the only issue here. There's more reform now - and reform at high levels, than at any time in the history of the religion.</p>
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<p>Places like Iran especially womens rights have moved massively forward in 20 years. Islam is still horribly backweard, but its a mistake to assume its not modernising because ISIS are cutting peoples heads off. "All the evidence" - what? ISIS? 30 years ago airlines were regularly hijacked, Iran & Iraq were at war killing milliions etc. The idea this is the worst thats happened and hence evidence of a downwards spirial speaks to zero understanding of recent history.</p>
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<p>The rise of ISIS has less to with militant Islam than it has to do with a civil war in Iraq caused by the staggeringly bad government. If you wanted to stop ISIS & could have either imposed a federal government in Iraq that split Sunni / Shia / Kurd zones & ensured the Sunni felt safe & had good governance or de-Islamed the whole country, the former would have worked. The latter wouldn't have done shit. Same in places like Yemen where the uprising AQ have exploited is down to water being withheld from regions the government doesnt like. Egypt may well have a huge uprising in the next 5 years, but it has zero to do with Islam & everything to do with 40% youth unemployment, tho' unquestionably groups like the Muslim Brotherhood will use it & bit'll be branded an Islamist uprising.</p>
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<p>Both of those conflicts are civil wars that AQ & ISIS have stepped into to provide an alternative to dying. And oddly people have gone with them. Huge numbers of ISIS fighters are genuine Jihadi's, but far more are guys with no job, who can't feed their families & whose family have been attacked by Badr Brigade thugs, so they got offered $200 a month to join ISIS, and did. Strip away ISIS & AQ you still have civil wars, you just dont have a label. In effect you have Rwanda where Tutsi & Hutu butchered each other.</p>
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<p>So I guess my point would be - Islam, contrary to common belief is modernising (too slowly, but still moving forward), but "missionary beheaded!" is always going to get more clicks than "Grand Mufti calls for tolerance of gays". And the extremely bad shit happening in several contries has more to do with economics & abysmall government (and even, trigger here, climate change) than it has to do with Islam. </p>
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<p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="604372" data-time="1470738748">
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<p>you don't reckon they think they're fighting back?</p>
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<p>i wouldn't give russia a free pass on anything, but they are politically so separate from us that to me their actions are kind of irrelevant - we're not going to follow them into anything.</p>
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<p>i think western involvement in the middle east has been a huge factor in us seeing so many more terrorist attacks in western countries. if i were to think of a way to recruit terrorists in the middle east, bringing that up and casting the west as evil would be my number one tactic, and those who had lost family and friends because of it would be top of my list of potential recruits. </p>
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<p>i'm not even really talking about whether it was right or wrong to intervene, just about what the consequences are. i think allowing immigration (in the way that has occurred) from the middle east after making the decision to intervene was foolhardy in the extreme.</p>
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<p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604383" data-time="1470740202"><p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p></blockquote>You are dedicated to banging on about how bad Islam is, and certainly you can provide examples, like Serbia, where the west inflicted death and destruction without revenge in the form of terrorism against the west. However it doesn't get you any closer to understanding the nature of the enemy and how we might overcome them.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604379" data-time="1470739717">
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<p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive. </p>
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<p>I think this is good, particularly the role of politics and the presence of hideous leaders and governing parties and organisations.</p>
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<p>I believe these people make a scapegoat out of religions, which while nuts (religions that is), are still a pretty harmless way most of the world live their lives</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604383" data-time="1470740202">
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<p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p>
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<p>The Indochinese also seem remarkably adverse to committing acts of terror against innocent civilians despite the shit inflicted on them by both their former colonial masters and the US. Actually a Vietnamese guy was imprisoned for terrorism charges. Want to guess what his religion was?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604379" data-time="1470739717"><p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive.<br></p></blockquote>The west have a poor record in this regard. They have tended to install and/or support strong leaders who can ensure a stable flow of oil as opposed to leaders that are necessarily moderates or reformers. At this point in time I don't think Saudi or Qatar qualify by your criteria
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604386" data-time="1470740781">
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<p>You are dedicated to banging on about how bad Islam is, and certainly you can provide examples, like Serbia, where the west inflicted death and destruction without revenge in the form of terrorism against the west. However it doesn't get you any closer to understanding the nature of the enemy and how we might overcome them.</p>
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<p>I've pointed this out before but I'm not banging on about all of islam at all , the vast majority of muslims get on with their lives , raise their kids go to work and chill with their friends without feeling the need to ever but on a suicide vest just like we do. I don't buy this narrative that we bought the shit the radicals are dumping on us on ourselves though especially in light of the way they are treating other muslims who have bugger al but hold a different view of their religion .</p>
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<p>Overcome them?Right now training Iraqi troops , drone strikes and bombing Isis strongholds seems to be doing a good job of overcoming them as their caliphate shrinks day by day. As for understanding them , well they want us to convert to their way of thinking or die. That seems to be about it really, not much room for negotiation there.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604390" data-time="1470741490">
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<p>The west have a poor record in this regard. They have tended to install and/or support strong leaders who can ensure a stable flow of oil as opposed to leaders that are necessarily moderates or reformers. At this point in time I don't think Saudi or Qatar qualify by your criteria</p>
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<p>Who was the last leader the west installed?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="604357" data-time="1470735174">
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<p>I'd wager there's a few who think it's an example of a hateful ideology that seeks to discriminate and kill those who do not share the same values.</p>
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<p>Sorry to bring in an alternative point of view.</p>
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<p><strong>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</strong></p>
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<p>There's not really much you can say in response to this is there?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604393" data-time="1470741647"><p>Who was the last leader the west installed?</p></blockquote>Karzai? In terms of the installed part I was thinking of someone like the shah of Iran or Saddam until he lost his privileges. If we're talking about stamping out proliferation of Islam don't you find it peculiar that the west cosies up to both countries I mentioned, who happen to be two of the biggest supporters of the spread of fundamentalist Islam in the world?
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604392" data-time="1470741595"><p>I've pointed this out before but I'm not banging on about all of islam at all , the vast majority of muslims get on with their lives , raise their kids go to work and chill with their friends without feeling the need to ever but on a suicide vest just like we do. I don't buy this narrative that we bought the shit the radicals are dumping on us on ourselves though especially in light of the way they are treating other muslims who have bugger al but hold a different view of their religion .<br>
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Overcome them?Right now training Iraqi troops , drone strikes and bombing Isis strongholds seems to be doing a good job of overcoming them as their caliphate shrinks day by day. As for understanding them , well they want us to convert to their way of thinking or die. That seems to be about it really, not much room for negotiation there.</p></blockquote>i don't think you was the article reprobate posted, it was an interesting interview from a member of ISIS -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604397" data-time="1470742120">
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<p>Karzai? In terms of the installed part I was thinking of someone like the shah of Iran or Saddam until he lost his privileges. <strong>If we're talking about stamping out proliferation of Islam</strong> don't you find it peculiar that the west cosies up to both countries I mentioned, who happen to be two of the biggest supporters of the spread of fundamentalist Islam in the world?</p>
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<p>Whos talking about stamping out the proliferation of islam? You won't find any argument from me about the Saudis, I'm hoping electric cars eventually make them poor and irrelevant again. The US has been reaching out Iran at long last which is making the Saudis squeal .</p>
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<p>Karzai was voted in wasn't he? The Shah was back in the 50s , I don't think the west had much to do with Saddam taking over iraq as he sucked up to the soviets as well.</p> -
<p><strong>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</strong></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604395" data-time="1470741800">
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<p>There's not really much you can say in response to this is there?</p>
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<p>True, a churlish reply from me mate. I defo concede that</p>
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<p>In my opinion (whatever that's worth) it does satirise a lot of what I sense on these threads though.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604399" data-time="1470742312">
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<p>i don't think you was the article reprobate posted, it was an interesting interview from a member of ISIS</p>
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<p>I missed it, cheers it was a good read. There's been some good stories in the Atlantic and Longform lately too. One was from an anti Isis militia stuck outside their home city and they weren't allowed to go in and fight until they US air force and liaison troops had caught up with them to support an attack to take the whole city because if they didn't go in with their support and stalled or lost the initiative Isis would take out awful reprisals on the people left there. Most of which were the militias family. Not sure how that fits in with the "all the wests bombing is making more terrorists" narrative but you have to feel for the guys sitting outside the city wondering what is happening to their family. </p>