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The Current State of Rugby

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The Current State of Rugby
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  • RapidoR Offline
    RapidoR Offline
    Rapido
    wrote on last edited by
    #1345

    Hmmm. I see 7s as the gateway drug for referees sin-binning anything & everything that never deserved a card. Wasn't a fan.

    SnowyS 1 Reply Last reply
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  • SnowyS Offline
    SnowyS Offline
    Snowy
    replied to Rapido on last edited by
    #1346

    @Rapido said in The Current State of Rugby:

    Hmmm. I see 7s as the gateway drug for referees sin-binning anything & everything that never deserved a card. Wasn't a fan.

    Was certainly more prevalent earlier in sevens and bloody annoying then too. I just made the comment in the sevens thread that 6 on 7 is a hard watch for two minutes.

    We really do need a better system for discipline than sending players off. The fans pay the real price for it.

    KiwiwombleK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • KiwiwombleK Offline
    KiwiwombleK Offline
    Kiwiwomble
    replied to Snowy on last edited by
    #1347

    @Snowy sometimes i have wondered, in the case of proper foul play (high tackle etc) whether a penalty try regardless of where on the field and no sending off wouldn't keep the game going, the player obviously doesn't get punished but maybe thats where after match sanctions come in

    SnowyS 1 Reply Last reply
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  • SnowyS Offline
    SnowyS Offline
    Snowy
    replied to Kiwiwomble on last edited by
    #1348

    @Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:

    @Snowy sometimes i have wondered, in the case of proper foul play (high tackle etc) whether a penalty try regardless of where on the field and no sending off wouldn't keep the game going, the player obviously doesn't get punished but maybe thats where after match sanctions come in

    Hard to come up with a solution but we need one. The above would probably just give more power to pedants officiating. They can directly affect the outcome, rather indirectly like now when one team can have 79 minutes to overcome opposition with 14 men.

    The worst bit is that so many of the red cards are accidental. Negligent sure, but often just a reflex, fling an arm out stuff.

    A yellow for a deliberate knock on isn't actually in the law book, the sanction is a penalty - unless it is cynical / prevents a try being scored. Seems to be an awful lot of cynicism and probable tries...
    Most of those are just fling an arm out stuff as well, yet we end up without 30 players on the field.

    The most obvious deliberate knock ons that I have seen are from halfbacks when a penalty has been awarded and they want to take the kick. That is cynical but they never get penalised certainly not sent off. (TBF I haven't noticed it much lately, maybe they got told).

    KiwiwombleK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • KiwiwombleK Offline
    KiwiwombleK Offline
    Kiwiwomble
    replied to Snowy on last edited by
    #1349

    @Snowy yeah, good points

    ive been saying for a while the only way forward is "just let shit go"...so just accept cynical (not like punching and high shots but deliberate knocks for example) and accidental stuff as part of the game...play so as to make cynical stuff harder to do....but obviously thats not an option, fans and officials arent suddenly going to accept all that stuff just so there is less to moan about...

    thats why fixing the game is such a tough idea

    SnowyS 1 Reply Last reply
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  • SnowyS Offline
    SnowyS Offline
    Snowy
    replied to Kiwiwomble on last edited by
    #1350

    @Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:

    thats why fixing the game is such a tough idea

    Indeed it is.

    When you put words like "deliberate" in any law you are asking for trouble. It is almost impossible to prove intent, we aren't mind readers. NZ tax law is full of "intent" wording and an absolute minefield.

    For deliberate knock ons - Intercepts are exciting they add to the drama. Detering players from having a crack and sending them off is fucked (in my opinion of course). Leave the onus on the passer not to give the opposition a sniff at it.

    How many times have we seen a player pass to an AR or into the crowd? If it was in the last second of the game, and you are ahead, a kick to touch could be charged, you "pass" it out. Was it thrown out? Deliberately? SBW knocked one dead a while back, (probably forgot which code he was playing) if he had fumbled it dead, it would have been O.K. It was obvious in that case, but should it be an interpretation? That's where league is getting it right and union wrong. Let them do it, in this case anyway. You can run into touch, kick into touch, but not pass into touch, or it's a penalty. A bit random isn't it?

    Just clearer, less ambiguous laws, would be a start. Refs have hard enough time without leaving it up to them to decide if something was deliberate. Only one person knows what was intended and FFS leave thirty guys on the field, sort out thuggery separately.

    KiwiwombleK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4life
    wrote on last edited by
    #1351

    I've banged on a bout it heaps, but rugby's problem is, so much stuff is legal right up until it's not. Hand in the ruck is the best illustration. But there are so many infringements in the game that are completely reliant on the referees judgement, around timing, around angle, around intent. You simply cannot expect consistency between referees when these things happen at speed.

    And all VAR has done is move the judgement from one guy to another guy. A guy looking at things in slow motion, which actually distorts everything.

    League has the advantage that it is a very very simple game. And the only place that judgement comes in to it is the strip. This black and white view though has led to some stupid outcomes, mainly around obstruction. But it is a far simpler game to referee.

    Rugby will never be this simple because it is a constant contest

    SnowyS 1 Reply Last reply
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  • KiwiwombleK Offline
    KiwiwombleK Offline
    Kiwiwomble
    replied to Snowy on last edited by
    #1352

    @Snowy said in The Current State of Rugby:

    @Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:

    thats why fixing the game is such a tough idea

    Indeed it is.

    When you put words like "deliberate" in any law you are asking for trouble. It is almost impossible to prove intent, we aren't mind readers. NZ tax law is full of "intent" wording and an absolute minefield.

    For deliberate knock ons - Intercepts are exciting they add to the drama. Detering players from having a crack and sending them off is fucked (in my opinion of course). Leave the onus on the passer not to give the opposition a sniff at it.

    How many times have we seen a player pass to an AR or into the crowd? If it was in the last second of the game, and you are ahead, a kick to touch could be charged, you "pass" it out. Was it thrown out? Deliberately? SBW knocked one dead a while back, (probably forgot which code he was playing) if he had fumbled it dead, it would have been O.K. It was obvious in that case, but should it be an interpretation? That's where league is getting it right and union wrong. Let them do it, in this case anyway. You can run into touch, kick into touch, but not pass into touch, or it's a penalty. A bit random isn't it?

    Just clearer, less ambiguous laws, would be a start. Refs have hard enough time without leaving it up to them to decide if something was deliberate. Only one person knows what was intended and FFS leave thirty guys on the field, sort out thuggery separately.

    agreed on all counts, leave lots of stuff up to the players to attack or defend better rather than using the laws to try (fail) to do it

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • SnowyS Offline
    SnowyS Offline
    Snowy
    replied to mariner4life on last edited by Snowy
    #1353

    @mariner4life I agree with what you're saying, and I wasn't suggesting that union got dumbed down to league levels (tongue firmly in cheek) , merely that league has got some things right that union could use. Probably too arrogant to do so, but some simplification wouldn't be too hard. I have even given a couple of examples.

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4life
    wrote on last edited by
    #1354

    You'll never get enough buy in

    If you go to other parts of rugby social media fans from other jurisdictions want more cards, and are more than happy with the current state of affairs.

    antipodeanA 1 Reply Last reply
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  • BonesB Offline
    BonesB Offline
    Bones
    replied to Victor Meldrew on last edited by
    #1355

    @Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:

    Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.

    I'm confused, you start off by saying times are bad, but end up saying it's great?

    Anyway, supporters seem as good as ever. The pre RWC final warm up at twickers had a fantastic atmosphere. Bit of banter as you'd expect, but good spirits all around.

    Mind you, might have been different if the scorecard was reversed...

    Victor MeldrewV 1 Reply Last reply
    1
  • Victor MeldrewV Offline
    Victor MeldrewV Offline
    Victor Meldrew
    replied to Bones on last edited by
    #1356

    @Bones said in The Current State of Rugby:

    I'm confused, you start off by saying times are bad,

    I'll explain. I started off saying what I think is wrong with the game and then split it down into sections.

    but end up saying it's great?

    On supporters, my main point was there was too much tribalism creeping in. I also said some supporters were as good as ever and Twickenham has done a great job in cleaning up most of the shit behaviour we've had there in the past.

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • Victor MeldrewV Offline
    Victor MeldrewV Offline
    Victor Meldrew
    replied to Snowy on last edited by
    #1357

    @Snowy said in The Current State of Rugby:

    @Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:

    It has the fun missing from the top-level 15 man game

    Normally I would agree with you, but it lacks a lot of the (now well documented on here) frustration as well.

    As @Machpants has now mentioned.

    I'm agreeing with you @Machpants! I'm saying 7s has all the fun that's missing from the 15 man game

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • antipodeanA Offline
    antipodeanA Offline
    antipodean
    replied to mariner4life on last edited by
    #1358

    @mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:

    You'll never get enough buy in

    If you go to other parts of rugby social media fans from other jurisdictions want more cards, and are more than happy with the current state of affairs.

    I'm certain that will change as soon as they're on the receiving end. And then I hope it doesn't.

    SnowyS 1 Reply Last reply
    1
  • SnowyS Offline
    SnowyS Offline
    Snowy
    replied to antipodean on last edited by Snowy
    #1359

    @antipodean said in The Current State of Rugby:

    @mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:

    You'll never get enough buy in

    If you go to other parts of rugby social media fans from other jurisdictions want more cards, and are more than happy with the current state of affairs.

    I'm certain that will change as soon as they're on the receiving end. And then I hope it doesn't.

    @mariner4life well if they want more cards the upside is that I will end up watching svns anyway (fuck that is stupid, are "e"s expensive or something?). The number of cards mean that union games (can't calls them "matches" as it implies an even contest) seem to be down to league numbers on the field, so they might as well keep going.

    If @antipodean is correct, then until it happens to these other social media fans, rugby union 15s has fallen completely off my list of pleasurable pastimes.

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • Victor MeldrewV Offline
    Victor MeldrewV Offline
    Victor Meldrew
    wrote on last edited by
    #1360

    Boks to play Portugal in July. This is good news for the smaller countries - hope the other Tier One nations follow suit.

    Adam Kyriacou  /  Dec 8, 2023  /  South Africa

    Springboks host two-Test series v Ireland and historic clash with Portugal

    Springboks host two-Test series v Ireland and historic clash with Portugal

    World Cup holders South Africa will face Ireland in a two-Test series on home soil next July before facing Portugal for the first time in their history.

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • TimT Away
    TimT Away
    Tim
    wrote on last edited by
    #1361
    Rugby World Cup, Sport, Rugby, All Blacks

    Warren Gatland: The changes I would make to rugby in 2024

    Warren Gatland: The changes I would make to rugby in 2024

    Kicking often at the World Cup was a successful strategy but it needs to change.

    MiketheSnowM 1 Reply Last reply
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  • MiketheSnowM Offline
    MiketheSnowM Offline
    MiketheSnow
    replied to Tim on last edited by
    #1362

    @Tim said in The Current State of Rugby:

    Rugby World Cup, Sport, Rugby, All Blacks

    Warren Gatland: The changes I would make to rugby in 2024

    Warren Gatland: The changes I would make to rugby in 2024

    Kicking often at the World Cup was a successful strategy but it needs to change.

    Love Gatland, but that is muddled, contradictory thinking.

    Too much kicking in the game in one breath, and then 'remove the mark' in the next.

    If you remove the mark we'll see more not less kicking.

    Dan54D 1 Reply Last reply
    2
  • sparkyS Offline
    sparkyS Offline
    sparky
    wrote on last edited by
    #1363

    I've not really watched any Rugby since the Rugby World Cup. Maybe I'll get back into it when the 6 Nations and Super Rugby roll around, but at the moment I'm not missing it.

    Dan54D 1 Reply Last reply
    1
  • Dan54D Offline
    Dan54D Offline
    Dan54
    replied to sparky on last edited by
    #1364

    @sparky said in The Current State of Rugby:

    I've not really watched any Rugby since the Rugby World Cup. Maybe I'll get back into it when the 6 Nations and Super Rugby roll around, but at the moment I'm not missing it.

    Must admit at end of WC I thought I was ready for a break. That lasted about a week-10 days and then started back watching Galagher championship etc etc.
    I suspect I have a slight rugby problem.

    1 Reply Last reply
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