Cricket - best ever, trivia etc
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he's doing considerably better than Pat Cummins who i consider a pretty handy bottom of the order bat.
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@Chris-B said in Aussie Summer of Cricket:
I haven't paid much attention recently, but I've previously heard of Brathwaite, Roach and Alzarri Joseph in this Windies team - maybe da Silva.
If Clive Lloyd were dead he'd be turning in his grave!
……and to be honest I’m not sure he even qualifies for my aforementioned Windies 15-20 legends.
Very good batsman and a terrific captain…..
But if I’m making that list of legends then batsmen like Sobers, Richards, Lara, Headley, the three Ws ( google them ) and maybe Chanderpaul get in ahead of him.
Greenidge, Haynes, Richardson etc miss out despite all being bloody good.
In terms of bowlers you have Marshall ( I reckon the best test fast bowler of all time ) Ambrose, Garner, Holding, Roberts…plus some old timers I cant think of.
Croft, Bishop and Walsh were excellent too if below that absolute elite level ( injuries/bans etc the first two are Windies versions of Shane Bond in one sense )
They need a keeper. Dujon gets in.
This modern crop don’t compare. Roach is a very good pace bowler and I admire his guts and longevity. Holder is a terrific all rounder when he can be bothered playing.
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@MN5 Clive would have a hard job breaking into the best ever Windies XI, but it would be hard to deny him a place in the Hall of Fame.
I think he's more legendary than Chanderpaul (I think Greenidge and Haynes are too, even though they've got lower averages - I'd have Clive a bit higher on the pantheon than either of those two as well - because he was captain of probably the greatest ever team).
I think Greenidge and Haynes play in the best ever Windies team - otherwise I think you're manufacturing an opener from the middle order.
Middle order is fucking tough to get into.
Headley, Richards, Lara, Sobers, probably Walcott as the keeper. Which omits Weekes, Worrell, Lloyd, Kanhai, Nurse, Chanderpaul and doubtless others I'm forgetting.
And then the bowlers - Gibbs, Ramadhin or Valentine if you need a spinner. Learie Constantine if you want another allrounder (probably surplus to requirements).
And a wealth of fast bowling options - including Griffith and Hall from the older days, but it's probably Marshall, Holding, Ambrose and Garner - Roberts and Walsh next off the rank.
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@Chris-B said in Aussie Summer of Cricket:
@MN5 Clive would have a hard job breaking into the best ever Windies XI, but it would be hard to deny him a place in the Hall of Fame.
I think he's more legendary than Chanderpaul (I think Greenidge and Haynes are too, even though they've got lower averages - I'd have Clive a bit higher on the pantheon than either of those two as well - because he was captain of probably the greatest ever team).
I think Greenidge and Haynes play in the best ever Windies team - otherwise I think you're manufacturing an opener from the middle order.
Middle order is fucking tough to get into.
Headley, Richards, Lara, Sobers, probably Walcott as the keeper. Which omits Weekes, Worrell, Lloyd, Kanhai, Nurse, Chanderpaul and doubtless others I'm forgetting.
And then the bowlers - Gibbs, Ramadhin or Valentine if you need a spinner. Learie Constantine if you want another allrounder (probably surplus to requirements).
And a wealth of fast bowling options - including Griffith and Hall from the older days, but it's probably Marshall, Holding, Ambrose and Garner - Roberts and Walsh next off the rank.
So basically you’re saying my arbitrary figure of 15-20 is about right
Not sure if rotating any lot of four amazing fast bowlers makes someone a world class captain but Lloyd has the results I guess.
Also did Headley play enough to get in the team ?
I suppose Greenidge and Haynes get in for their amazing combo and the fact they are specialist openers, an area the Windies are relatively weak at compared to other departments.
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@MN5 I've read a fair bit of commentary that Clive wasn't a fabulous captain - just that he had one good idea - but it was a fucking good one.
Somewhere there's a great quote about when he set an opposition team a steep chase and his spinners failed to bowl them out - google finds the story....
In 1976, Lloyd infamously declared the innings at 271 for six at Port of Spain, leaving India to get 403 in the final innings. Albert Padmore, Raphick Jumadeen and Imtiaz Ali could give him just two wickets in 105 overs of spin. India cruised home by six wickets. At the end of the match in the dressing room, Lloyd asked his spinners, “Gentlemen, I gave you 400 runs to bowl at and you failed to bowl out the opposition. How many runs must I give you in future to make sure that you get the wickets?” Never again would Lloyd be let down by spin. It was the start of a new paradigm: relentless pace. Michael Holding and Wayne Daniel started it by terrorising the Indian batsmen at Jamaica. The visitors as good as forfeited the match and trudged back from the ground like Napoleon’s army from Russia.
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WI vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 4th Test at Kingston, April 21 - 25, 1976
Get cricket scorecard of 4th Test, WI vs IND, India tour of West Indies 1975/76 at Sabina Park, Kingston, Jamaica dated April 21 - 25, 1976.
Here's the scorecard of the "as good as forfeited" match. Bedi declared the first innings closed effectively 8 down to protect himself and Chandra.
Second innings they had five batsmen (supposedly) absent hurt (three maimed in the first innings). Mohinder Armanath apparently one of the bravest ever (and probably a compulsive hooker) made 60 with three sixes and two-thirds of the Indian runs.
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@NTA Yeah - I played in the era when helmets were just starting out. Even the fast bowlers playing senior club cricket were fucking scary!
I've got a book called Letting Rip about fast bowling, that discusses this game. The book's entertaining, but a bit over the top.
Interestingly, India finished the first day at 178/1 - but, apparently overnight grass sprouted on the pitch to make it faster and more dangerous. The author claims it changed the course of cricket history.
Vishwanath got caught off the glove and broke his hand, Patel edged one into his mouth and Gaekwad got hit behind the ear (and spent 2 days in hospital).
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@Chris-B said in Aussie Summer of Cricket:
@MN5 I've read a fair bit of commentary that Clive wasn't a fabulous captain - just that he had one good idea - but it was a fucking good one.
Somewhere there's a great quote about when he set an opposition team a steep chase and his spinners failed to bowl them out - google finds the story....
In 1976, Lloyd infamously declared the innings at 271 for six at Port of Spain, leaving India to get 403 in the final innings. Albert Padmore, Raphick Jumadeen and Imtiaz Ali could give him just two wickets in 105 overs of spin. India cruised home by six wickets. At the end of the match in the dressing room, Lloyd asked his spinners, “Gentlemen, I gave you 400 runs to bowl at and you failed to bowl out the opposition. How many runs must I give you in future to make sure that you get the wickets?” Never again would Lloyd be let down by spin. It was the start of a new paradigm: relentless pace. Michael Holding and Wayne Daniel started it by terrorising the Indian batsmen at Jamaica. The visitors as good as forfeited the match and trudged back from the ground like Napoleon’s army from Russia.
Haha, what a name for a cricketer
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@Chris-B The irony with that story is that Jumadeen one of the failed spinners from the first test actually took 2/5 wickets required in the Indian second innings.
Holding the other 3.
Mohinder Armanath was one of my favourite batsmen of that era. Started out shit against the short stuff but through sheer bloody mindedness turned himself into one of the best players of the short stuff of his time.
His father scored India's first ever test century. A brother also played tests.
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Mohinder Amarnath played 8 Tests against the West Indies in 1983.
In the 5 Tests in the West Indies he had scores of:
29 40
58 117
13
91 80
54 116598 runs/average 66.44
Later the same year, the West Indies returned the visit in India with six Tests. He had scores of:
0 0
1 0
(did not play)
(did not play)
0 0
(did not play) -
I always find a good stat chat interesting and to this day I don’t quite know how the test ranking system works…..
But with Henry Nicholls peaking at FIVE when he was in the team ( current ranking 40th ) I thought it would be interesting to see where our best batsmen have peaked…..
Apologies if I’ve missed anyone, I’m doing this over a coffee on a windy Waitangi Day.
KW - 1 ( in case anyone didn’t know )
Glenn Turner - 1 ( wow, genuinely surprised he did it and the next bloke down didn’t )
Martin Crowe - 4
Ross Taylor - 4 ( probably fair throughout his whole career )
Daryl Mitchell - 4 ( all those hundreds in England helped )
Henry Nicholls - 5 ( amazing )
Jeremy Coney - 6 ( I never thought he was this good, genuinely surprised )
Mark Richardson - 6
Tom Latham - 7
John Wright - 7
Tom Blundell - 7 ( wouldn’t Conway have gotten here after the start he had ? This is why I don’t get these rankings )
Andrew Jones - 9
Mark Greatbatch - 11
Chris Cairns - 11 ( also peaked at 8 as a bowler )
BJ Watling - 11
Brendon McCullum - 12
Stephen Fleming - 13 ( I thought he would have cracked the top 10 at some stage )
Craig McMillan - 14
Nathan Astle - 17
Devon Conway - 17
Ken Rutherford - 23
Richard Hadlee - 23 ( also peaked at 1 as a bowler )
Dan Vettori - 25 ( also peaked at 8 as a bowler ) -
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v South Africa Tests:
Hadley at 23rd at some point is the biggest surprise for me.
When was that?
*Hadlee.
You show the GOAT some god damn respect and get his name right.
But to answer your question I’m not sure, probably when he was batting really well I’d say.
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v South Africa Tests:
Hadley at 23rd at some point is the biggest surprise for me.
When was that?
I suppose, if there are only 6 test playing nations (excluding Sri Lanka) in the 80s, then there's only 36 top-6 spots in 'the pool'.
Yeah although not discounting Turners achievement. That is some effort…..tougher to get there now with a few more nations.
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Hsdlee's top ranking of 23rd was in 1987 after his highest test score in Sri Lanka in 1987.
Although his highest rating was in 1984 after his 99 v England in Christchurch, but their was better batting competition in 1984 than in 1987 and his slightly higher rating was 'only' good enough for a ranking of 24th.
Rating:
Ranking:
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Bowlers turn now……
Richard Hadlee - 1
Neil Wagner - 2 ( love Wags )
Trent Boult - 3
Kyle Jamieson - 3
Tim Southee - 3
Richard Collinge - 4
Ewen Chatfeild - 4 ( wow, that is fucken amazing in that era, shot Chats ! )
Shane Bond - 4 ( disappointing, I was sure he was 1 at one stage )
Daryl Tuffey - 6
Simon Doull - 6
Chris Cairns - 8
Lance Cairns - 8
Danny Morrison - 8
Daniel Vettori - 8
Chris Martin - 10
John Bracewell - 11
Dion Nash - 12
James Franklin - 12
Dayle Hadlee - 15
Martin Snedden - 25 -
All Rounders
These rankings are a bit of a fucken joke, Current rankings have Jadeja, Ashwin and Al Hasan taking up the top three spots which is fair enough but number four is a world class batsman who bowls a bit ( Joe Root ) and five is an all rounder who hasn’t had a bowl in his last five tests ( Ben Stokes )
….anyway…..
Richard Hadlee - 1 ( excellent considering the other three big names playing at the time )
Chris Cairns - 1 ( shot Cairnsy )
Daniel Vettori - 2 ( I could have sworn he was number 1 at least once…..)
Jacob Oram - 5
Lance Cairns - 5
John Bracewell - 6
Colin De Grandhomme - 6
Kyle Jamieson - 6 ( most overrated lower order batsman of all time )
Tim Southee - 7 ( in your face haters )
Doin Nash - 7Four of these “all rounders” don’t actually have test hundreds but obviously that doesn’t count for much.
