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@Rembrandt said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I think most sensible people are in total agreement with this.
I don't agree. And one day in the future people will look back at a time when a weird madness swept the West (its only the West) where many thought cows farting and a tiny increase in CO2 was responsible for more warming than the sun.
You will maybe see the truth one day.
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Let me think about this for a bit
Yep, think for yourself. Nobody else does apparently.
I would like to understand your obsession with the hockey stick. There is other data out there that would suggest an escalating rise, and no I'm not spending my time finding it but I have seen it.
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Let me think about this for a bit
Yep, think for yourself. Nobody else does apparently.
I would like to understand your obsession with the hockey stick. There is other data out there that would suggest an escalating rise, and no I'm not spending my time finding it but I have seen it.
Most don't. they just bow down to authority figures. No matter what they are told. And that's the issue the West has today
But can we at least agree that cows farting and burping causing the planet to warm is just a bit out there?
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
many thought cows farting and a tiny increase in CO2 was responsible for more warming than the sun.
That's not what many think, you are making things up to suit your argument from a radical viewpoint.
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Rembrandt said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
You will maybe see the truth one day.
And so may you.
Let's hope not.
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Most don't. they just bow down to authority figures. No matter what they are told. And that's the issue the West has today
But can we at least agree that cows farting and burping causing the planet to warm is just a bit out there?Bullshit (yes I know) on bowing to authority figures. Who are these wimps that you know?
Most people I know are educated and "think for themselves" so they follow the science like you do.
Yes to the latter comment. Carbon stores in trees (and others) is far more important than methane emissions from cows.
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Here's a hockey stick graph we can get behind https://babylonbee.com/news/experts-warn-global-outrage-levels-will-reach-point-of-no-return-in-2020?fbclid=IwAR3VPBEgVZmzMdvmJd5ZssvnKmx0Ehat3Rau-AsKcB3phJsMHmlq5WG8AYk
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@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Michael Mann did the first hockey stick graph. Where the medieval warm period was removed. So one of the leading climate 'scientists' refuse to divulge his original data.
James Matkin
James Matkin, former Deputy Minister at Government of British Columbia (1974-1983)
Updated Nov 18Yes. Many scientists oppose the action of Michael Mann erasing climate history to create a new theory. Dr. Tim Ball is one of the most vigorous. For his efforts Mann started a SLAP libel suit to shut down the criticism. Mann recently lost the suit in the Supreme Court of BC for inordinate delay. He also refused to abide by a consent order to divulge his original data.
Are the y-axes measuring the same parameter? Doesn't look like it. Anyone who thinks for themselves may want to check that.
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@booboo said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Michael Mann did the first hockey stick graph. Where the medieval warm period was removed. So one of the leading climate 'scientists' refuse to divulge his original data.
James Matkin
James Matkin, former Deputy Minister at Government of British Columbia (1974-1983)
Updated Nov 18Yes. Many scientists oppose the action of Michael Mann erasing climate history to create a new theory. Dr. Tim Ball is one of the most vigorous. For his efforts Mann started a SLAP libel suit to shut down the criticism. Mann recently lost the suit in the Supreme Court of BC for inordinate delay. He also refused to abide by a consent order to divulge his original data.
Are the y-axes measuring the same parameter? Doesn't look like it. Anyone who thinks for themselves may want to check that.
Define what you mean by parameter in this context. Because the difference doesn't disqualify the comparism. So not sure what your point is.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback Yeah, I did think that too. It's just a different scale, but the most obvious error is that the Mann hockey stick graph was for the Northern Hemispere. The Ball graph is for Europe so they aren't comparable anyway.
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I did a bit more reading about it, this was interesting:
A final thing to consider is that Mann’s Hockey Stick was published in 1998. That wasn’t super early, but was fairly early in the young climate change field of research that I don’t believe it matters today and people are making a great deal of fuss over a 21 year old piece of research that has since been improved upon. Yes, Mann’s hockey stick was published in the preliminary report to the IPCC’s third assessment, but the people who find that objectionable, regularly quote far more doctored bits of research to support their “man made climate change is bunk” claims. People like Roy Spencer, Jo Nova or Lord Mockton practically lie for a living and none of them come close to Mann’s ethics or honesty in his work and that’s not because Mann sets the bar so high, it’s because the so called skeptics set the bar so low.
Wouldn't take too much from those graph comparisons. As I said Ball's one excludes a couple of the largest land masses on the planet.
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@Snowy said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
I did a bit more reading about it, this was interesting:
A final thing to consider is that Mann’s Hockey Stick was published in 1998. That wasn’t super early, but was fairly early in the young climate change field of research that I don’t believe it matters today and people are making a great deal of fuss over a 21 year old piece of research that has since been improved upon. Yes, Mann’s hockey stick was published in the preliminary report to the IPCC’s third assessment, but the people who find that objectionable, regularly quote far more doctored bits of research to support their “man made climate change is bunk” claims. People like Roy Spencer, Jo Nova or Lord Mockton practically lie for a living and none of them come close to Mann’s ethics or honesty in his work and that’s not because Mann sets the bar so high, it’s because the so called skeptics set the bar so low.
Wouldn't take too much from those graph comparisons. As I said Ball's one excludes a couple of the largest land masses on the planet.
This quote is garbage
Mann got upset when Ball made a joke about Mann so he sued Ball. This required that Mann released his supporting calculations etc. He refused to do so so the case was dismissed. So all Mann had to do was release his supporting calcualtion adn evidence to prove Ball wrong and win his case. Why do you think he refused to do this. After having 9 YEARS to do so
Is this someone who has ethics or honesty in his work (also consider the climate-gate emails)
And this hockey stick graph was given center stage in the IPCC's report. It replaced a Tim Ball type graph that clearly showed that based on the majority of ice core sample's and other samples the warm period was a lot warmer than today. There never has been a hockey stick. Its fiction.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@booboo said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Winger said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
Michael Mann did the first hockey stick graph. Where the medieval warm period was removed. So one of the leading climate 'scientists' refuse to divulge his original data.
James Matkin
James Matkin, former Deputy Minister at Government of British Columbia (1974-1983)
Updated Nov 18Yes. Many scientists oppose the action of Michael Mann erasing climate history to create a new theory. Dr. Tim Ball is one of the most vigorous. For his efforts Mann started a SLAP libel suit to shut down the criticism. Mann recently lost the suit in the Supreme Court of BC for inordinate delay. He also refused to abide by a consent order to divulge his original data.
Are the y-axes measuring the same parameter? Doesn't look like it. Anyone who thinks for themselves may want to check that.
Define what you mean by parameter in this context. Because the difference doesn't disqualify the comparism. So not sure what your point is.
One is purportedly "Temperature anomally Relative to 1960-1990" (complete with spelling error), with a range of -1 to +1 degree C, the other is "Climatic changes in europe Over the past thousand years", with range 8.5 to 10 degrees C.
My point is they are not showing two different calculations of the same parameter. Thus to claim that one negates the other seems to me like poor science.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@booboo I think you have misread the graph.
Happy to have it explained
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They are both graphs covering roughly the same period and relative to similar time periods
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
They are both graphs covering roughly the same period and relative to similar time periods
Yeah I got that bit.
But what are they measuring on the y-axes?
One appears to be some sort of difference from an average for a 30 year period of 1960-1990, with the implication that it is a global measurement. (Although @Snowy suggest it's for the NH.)
The other seems to be limited to Europe only, being a variance from some sort of average for the entire 20th century.
The data seems to be displayed differently.
From my potentially naive perspective they seem to be different measurements.
If they are the same perhaps I need assistance to understand how they are.
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@booboo said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
They are both graphs covering roughly the same period and relative to similar time periods
Yeah I got that bit.
But what are they measuring on the y-axes?
One appears to be some sort of difference from an average for a 30 year period of 1960-1990, with the implication that it is a global measurement. (Although @Snowy suggest it's for the NH.)
The other seems to be limited to Europe only, being a variance from some sort of average for the entire 20th century.
The data seems to be displayed differently.
From my potentially naive perspective they seem to be different measurements.
If they are the same perhaps I need assistance to understand how they are.
Quite honestly I cannot be bothered. The bit about different locations is valid but your other critique is not.
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@booboo said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Climate Change #3 & Other Environmental Issues:
They are both graphs covering roughly the same period and relative to similar time periods
Yeah I got that bit.
But what are they measuring on the y-axes?
One appears to be some sort of difference from an average for a 30 year period of 1960-1990, with the implication that it is a global measurement. (Although @Snowy suggest it's for the NH.)
The other seems to be limited to Europe only, being a variance from some sort of average for the entire 20th century.
The data seems to be displayed differently.
From my potentially naive perspective they seem to be different measurements.
If they are the same perhaps I need assistance to understand how they are.
there are book on this if you want to read about it
The key though is Mann libel case was dismissed. Because Mann refused to releases his supporting data and calculations. The science is supposed to be so certain etc etc. yet a key part of this scary warming is based on this graph that Mann produced.
Why not release his data etc. after all the science is so certain. Then he can teach Ball a lesson. Unless ...
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Climate Change