Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?
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Indeed. He is now at La Rochelle alongside Kerr-Barlow and Victor Vito, looks like he is doind well and has been the regular starter there. I always wondered if he couldn't have covered 9 and 10 for the national side. But irrelevant now as he has 2 more years on his La Rochelle contract.
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It is worth thinking about how this hole was created. I remember watching early in the ITM Cup before the 2011 RWC Auckland vs Canterbury with Tom Taylor and Gareth Anscombe leading both sides around and being pretty confident we had to future 10s whose floor was higher than the World's best first five at the time (who you will remember was Quade Cooper).
Have your individual opinions on each player but how the NZRU mismanaged/failed to retain the Anscombe, Taylor, Sopoaga, Bleyendaal, West 1989-1992 birth year cohort is why we are where we are.
I understand some of it was Dan hanging around longer than expected with Cruden overbaking, but there is a lot more to it than that.
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@rotated Of those Taylor was clearly in the frame and chose to leave, Sops is all about the Benjamin’s, Blyeendraal was a bit over hyped and did nothing of note, Ihaia never found his groove, and Anscombe was an average 10 for the Blues and an ok 15 for Chiefs.
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@rotated said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
It is worth thinking about how this hole was created. I remember watching early in the ITM Cup before the 2011 RWC Auckland vs Canterbury with Tom Taylor and Gareth Anscombe leading both sides around and being pretty confident we had to future 10s whose floor was higher than the World's best first five at the time (who you will remember was Quade Cooper).
Have your individual opinions on each player but how the NZRU mismanaged/failed to retain the Anscombe, Taylor, Sopoaga, Bleyendaal, West 1989-1992 birth year cohort is why we are where we are.
I understand some of it was Dan hanging around longer than expected with Cruden overbaking, but there is a lot more to it than that.
At no point was Quade the world's best 10. Winning a Super Rugby title against a team who didn't play a single game in their home city all season does not make you the world's best 10.
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@rotated said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
but how the NZRU mismanaged/failed to retain the Anscombe, Taylor, Sopoaga, Bleyendaal, West 1989-1992 birth year cohort is why we are where we are.
haha....good one.
I recall you blaming NZR for holding onto DC being the reason we had to use Donald in 2011 as well and failing to develop players behind him.
There is only so much development of new players that can be done in the test seasons we have these days, and then when you do get a game v a minnow, you want to play your #2, not insert #4 or #5 for the what if scenario we are currently looking at.
Not to mention the new Cartel have BB, RM, DM (had) and took Campbell (for whatever reason) last seaosn so I think they had been looking at developing players.
Even if they had retained the services of 2 of those names you mention beyond when they left, it is equally likely they would have since left anyway.
So @sparky you are saying Anscombe was a missed opportunity for the ABs? Why not Parkes too? Whos to say how they'd have got on staying NZ, maybe they just suit the play in the NH better...
sliding doors shit now!
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@sparky said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
John Kirwan delisting Gareth Anscombe at the Blues looking a very poor decision with hindsight.
Agreed, MoTM in the republic in just his first or second game under Lam, managed to still develop despite Pat losing his marbles and then cut without explanation.
He has gone on to do OK though. Never thought he would take the Fox/Mehrts/Spencer/Carter torch, but obviously would have been capped AB had he stuck around and been developed correctly.
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Hadleigh Parkes less of an issue when we have Ryan Crotty, SBW, Ma'a Nonu, ALB, Laumape and Goodhue all of who can play 12. I would take all of those ahead of Hadleigh.
The shortage of Tens for the ABs is a problem. And like it or not, Gareth Anscombe is a now world-class Ten who is the pivot for the ranked Second in the World and just won the Grand Slam. He is a good goal-kicker too.
I remember a Junior World Championship team in 2011 where Gareth Anscombe was 10 and Beauden Barrett was fullback. Mind you, I think Anscombe's Dad was coach.
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@taniwharugby said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@rotated said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
but how the NZRU mismanaged/failed to retain the Anscombe, Taylor, Sopoaga, Bleyendaal, West 1989-1992 birth year cohort is why we are where we are.
haha....good one.
I recall you blaming NZR for holding onto DC being the reason we had to use Donald in 2011 as well and failing to develop players behind him.
There is only so much development of new players that can be done in the test seasons we have these days, and then when you do get a game v a minnow, you want to play your #2, not insert #4 or #5 for the what if scenario we are currently looking at.
Not to mention the new Cartel have BB, RM, DM (had) and took Campbell (for whatever reason) last seaosn so I think they had been looking at developing players.
Even if they had retained the services of 2 of those names you mention beyond when they left, it is equally likely they would have since left anyway.
I've said a lot of dumb shit on the Fern but I certainly never said that. Definitely thought they made a mistake not discarding Donald sooner and taking/calling up Slade/Cruden on the 2010 EOYT after Siti went down in Hong Kong but obviously Carter's longevity threw things out of whack.
The development I'm talking about isn't specifically at AB level either. I think the NZ selectors/HP Unit/Contracting team put all their eggs in on the Beauden Barrett basket (from the same cohort) and good for them. I just think they could have developed another couple of long term All Blacks out of that bunch, that's all.
@Nepia said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@rotated Of those Taylor was clearly in the frame and chose to leave, Sops is all about the Benjamin’s, Blyeendraal was a bit over hyped and did nothing of note, Ihaia never found his groove, and Anscombe was an average 10 for the Blues and an ok 15 for Chiefs.
They all have their individual stories. The fact the NZRU was handed all that talent and got barely ~25 tests out of it mostly off the bench is where the development problem is. Using Anscombe as an example in one (tumultuous) season with the Blues he was average, then cut. This is not sensible development. If MacDonald cuts Faiane for next season I would say the same.
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@sparky but how do you know Parkes woudlnt turn into a world class 12, better than Crotty, Nonu, SBW, and maybe even Ngatai?
Cos thats essentially what you are saying about Anscombe, both were not exactly players people saw as future ABs based on thier super rugby.
@rotated well we cant prove it, but you were basically saying the same as you are now but using Nick Evans as a player they should have held onto but let go
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@taniwharugby said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
@rotated well we cant prove it, but you were basically saying the same as you are now but using Nick Evans as a player they should have held onto but let go
There was a chorus of posters around 2009 who thought keeping Nick Evans (or finding a way to expunge 2 minutes from Isa Nacewa's life) would have been bloody good idea, particularly given the NZRU had already floated the idea of a sabattical for Carter prior to Evans signing off shore.
Did you prefer Donald's chip kicks within his own 22 or the clearing kicks that failed to make touch that year?
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Nah, Parkes is very solid but doesn't have the range of skills of the players available to the ABs at 12.
Worries about AB's depth at Ten are not new. These discussions have been going on for around a decade. Gareth Anscombe was never going to be the next Carlos Spencer but he could have done a more than decent job at Ten (as he has done in Wales) for a NZ Super Franchise given appropriate coaching.
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@sparky said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
John Kirwan delisting Gareth Anscombe at the Blues looking a very poor decision with hindsight.
Well, JK was expounding his theories on replacement first fives on The Breakdown last night. As was Ali Williams.
It's no wonder Leon is looking like a genius at the Blues!
Worst episode ever!
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@sparky well TBH I never saw anything in Anscombe to suggest he'd be a viable option at 10 for the ABs then or down the track.
As has been the xcase with plenty of 'journeymen' that leave our shores and become very good players up North, often this is attributed to the 'lower standard' of rugby, but I think equally it is just a different style of play, more often a shade slower than ours, allowing them to reach thier peak or simply play more freely.
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@rotated said in Who is the AB's 4th choice at 10?:
~25 tests out of it mostly off the bench is where the development problem is.
Who of DC, AC, BB and Slade would you have dropped to develop these pretenders, Sops aside who made the ABs when he hit peak form?
Not every age grade star makes it through. Bleyendaal, Anscombe and West never made the grade as 10s in NZ. Maybe if they had stuck around they would have, but it's not participation awards, they shouldn't have been handed tests before they're ready.
Also, Anscombe went from the Blues to the Super champions so it was probably an upward move if anything.
