The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen
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One for ex Ferner @davidav ...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12275758
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Just think what a shitstorm that story would have created 8 or 9 years ago.
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If he was here now I'd imagine davidav would say
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It all becomes clear now. @Davidav was really a member of the All Blacks coaching team having a laugh.
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Too many Aucklanders....
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Easy to believe when you consider how young he was, how shy he was and some of the phenomenal stuff he did on the field. Just amazing talent.
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Amazing for auckland and the blues. Incredible talent that we miss
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Average, at best.
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@antipodean said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Easy to believe when you consider how young he was, how shy he was and some of the phenomenal stuff he did on the field. Just amazing talent.
His year at the Canes he was clearly an amazing talent. A shame he never stayed
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Whilst Toeava may have been selected before his time - Richie was definately the GOAT
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Shag is just doing this for sentimental reasons ,
Nothing like a toeava windup for old times sake.
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@Jailbreak7 said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Whilst Toeava may have been selected before his time - Richie was definately the GOAT
Not sure what Richie has to do with this conversation?
The only person that thought Richie was selected too early was Kronfeld...
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Easy to see in hindsight Toeava was mishandled. The key is learning from the mistake.
These days they take young players away as apprentices so that they get a feel for the team without all the pressure. Did so with A Savea and also Aumua and someone else I have forgotten about.
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@Damo said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Easy to see in hindsight Toeava was mishandled. The key is learning from the mistake.
These days they take young players away as apprentices so that they get a feel for the team without all the pressure. Did so with A Savea and also Aumua and someone else I have forgotten about.
Brett Cameron....
I blame Fox
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@ACT-Crusader said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@Damo said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Easy to see in hindsight Toeava was mishandled. The key is learning from the mistake.
These days they take young players away as apprentices so that they get a feel for the team without all the pressure. Did so with A Savea and also Aumua and someone else I have forgotten about.
Brett Cameron....
I blame Fox
Too soon to say whether that one (and Aumua) will pay dividends.
I'd say Savea is going pretty well, though that has taken time to flourish.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@Damo said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Easy to see in hindsight Toeava was mishandled. The key is learning from the mistake.
These days they take young players away as apprentices so that they get a feel for the team without all the pressure. Did so with A Savea and also Aumua and someone else I have forgotten about.
Brett Cameron....
I blame Fox
Brett Cameron was never an All Blacks apprentice. He was in the 51-men squad for the Japan test in Tokyo and that's all.
A player who has been an apprentice was Atu Moli (for the home part of the 2017 TRC). I think there have been one or two more though.
All Blacks squad named for 2017 Investec Rugby Championship
Key points include the return of prop Nepo Laulala and fullback Nehe Milner-Skudder, while Julian Savea and Matt Todd miss out.
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@Damo @Stargazer umm okay.
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Pretty sure Wayne Smith said the same thing, as did Isa Nacewa.
I remember hearing Kahui say that Ice was the hardest player to defend. I wonder if Conrad thought the same, because Ice use to give him and Nonu fits all the time.
@canefan said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@antipodean said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Easy to believe when you consider how young he was, how shy he was and some of the phenomenal stuff he did on the field. Just amazing talent.
His year at the Canes he was clearly an amazing talent. A shame he never stayed
He made Lome Fa'atau look world class that season.
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@Dice said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Pretty sure Wayne Smith said the same thing, as did Isa Nacewa.
I remember hearing Kahui say that Ice was the hardest player to defend. I wonder if Conrad thought the same, because Ice use to give him and Nonu fits all the time.
@canefan said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@antipodean said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Easy to believe when you consider how young he was, how shy he was and some of the phenomenal stuff he did on the field. Just amazing talent.
His year at the Canes he was clearly an amazing talent. A shame he never stayed
He made Lome Fa'atau look world class that season.
I think they moved him too soon. Should have stayed at 15 (and at the Canes, the Blues are player killers!!!)
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@canefan all jokes aside, the best footy I saw him play was at 2nd 5 for the Blues. He had matured as a player. He had the speed, vision and kicking game.
I don’t know how to do it, but if anyone can dig up an old post I think by willie the weka who sat near Graham Henry and co at a Chiefs v Blues game and some of the comments overheard about the Toeava vs Kahui matchup.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@canefan all jokes aside, the best footy I saw him play was at 2nd 5 for the Blues. He had matured as a player. He had the speed, vision and kicking game.
I don’t know how to do it, but if anyone can dig up an old post I think by willie the weka who sat near Graham Henry and co at a Chiefs v Blues game and some of the comments overheard about the Toeava vs Kahui matchup.
What was the general gist?
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All talent, no ticker. Should have been sent to the Crusaders for a season or three.
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@Canerbry said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
All talent, no ticker. Should have been sent to the Crusaders for a season or three.
He would've looked awesome with a mullet. Getting even more injury prone probably wouldn't have helped though.
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@Canerbry said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
All talent, no ticker. Should have been sent to the Crusaders for a season or three.
Harsh assessment of Kahui there. Can you remember what WtW heard Ted say about Toeava also?
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@Canerbry said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
All talent, no ticker. Should have been sent to the Crusaders for a season or three.
As opposed to the speeding tortoise Caleb Ralph. All ticker, no talent.
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From late 2009 onwards Toeava was world class as an outside back. SBW arriving in 2010 hoovered up a lot of the opportunities that probably should have gone his way (bench spot, wing vs Argentina in the QF).
Unless there was something particularly unique about Toeava there doesn't seem any reason to abandon the "if you are young enough, you are good enough" approach. Here is a list of players capped for the ABs before their 21st brithday:
Ioane
Joe Roks
Cullen
Lomu
Cane
McCaw
Barrett
Guildford
Mauger
Atinga
Collins
RalphFairly good strike rate.
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I still have to side with Davidav on this one . I would say Toeava had the potential and physical gifts to be a world class player but issues with injury and confidence never allowed him to reach his potential. His error rate was just too high. It was a layup for him to be in the starting XV for the 2011 World Cup and he initially was but I think the cartel simply lost faith in him for the big games.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@canefan all jokes aside, the best footy I saw him play was at 2nd 5 for the Blues. He had matured as a player. He had the speed, vision and kicking game.
I don’t know how to do it, but if anyone can dig up an old post I think by willie the weka who sat near Graham Henry and co at a Chiefs v Blues game and some of the comments overheard about the Toeava vs Kahui matchup.
Yep there was a Super Rugby semi final against the Sharks in Durban where he almost single-handedly won the match for the Blues playing at 12 before going off injured (and then the Blues predictable fell apart thereafter).
I feel like that was an exemplar of his later career - any time he looked like he was about to really fulfil his potential and show people he was the player the Cartel said he was, he'd end up injured.
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@DMX said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
I still have to side with Davidav on this one . I would say Toeava had the potential and physical gifts to be a world class player but issues with injury and confidence never allowed him to reach his potential. His error rate was just too high. It was a layup for him to be in the starting XV for the 2011 World Cup and he initially was but I think the cartel simply lost faith in him for the big games.
he's only 33.
Could have been a starter in 2011, 2015 and 2019 if he'd delivered. A real tragedy that we lost him to NZ rugby.
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The way I remember it , had so many injuries and thrown around in so many positions he never really settled ,
Hard to knock the ab coaching set up at that time, but I agreee with shag , I don’t think they helped his development not just by playing him early, but thrown straight back in to the deep end at times after injuries , when he clearly didn’t look quite right confidence wise with a lack of rugby behind him.
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Man there’s some revisionism here.
Possum in a headlights early on and never ever seemed to go through an AB match without some sort of handling error, dropped ball etc.
He probably would have been better with age but he wasn’t a major loss like losing a player at the peak of his powers.
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@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Man there’s some revisionism here.
Possum in a headlights early on and never ever seemed to go through an AB match without some sort of handling error, dropped ball etc.
He probably would have been better with age but he wasn’t a major loss like losing a player at the peak of his powers.
so why would Hansen identify him as the most talented player he's ever seen?
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@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
never ever seemed to go through an AB match without some sort of handling error, dropped ball etc.
Bit like SBW then.
But Toeava had the time to grow and develop. Pity he never really had the chance in Black.
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@nzzp said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Man there’s some revisionism here.
Possum in a headlights early on and never ever seemed to go through an AB match without some sort of handling error, dropped ball etc.
He probably would have been better with age but he wasn’t a major loss like losing a player at the peak of his powers.
so why would Hansen identify him as the most talented player he's ever seen?
Never said he wasn’t talented. Just didn’t perform to an amazing level despite all that talent.
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That’s just it, in all the endless debates about him no doubting his potential, he just never realized it in NZ and not sure he was ever in the mental space to handle the pressure and scrutiny. Made a lot of sense for him to go imho.
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@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@nzzp said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Man there’s some revisionism here.
Possum in a headlights early on and never ever seemed to go through an AB match without some sort of handling error, dropped ball etc.
He probably would have been better with age but he wasn’t a major loss like losing a player at the peak of his powers.
so why would Hansen identify him as the most talented player he's ever seen?
Never said he wasn’t talented. Just didn’t perform to an amazing level despite all that talent.
Which is why shag has accepted responsibility, thrown in when he wasn’t really up to it , selection error , and probably lessons learned for how they develop the likes of Brodie as a comparison
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@kiwiinmelb said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@nzzp said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Man there’s some revisionism here.
Possum in a headlights early on and never ever seemed to go through an AB match without some sort of handling error, dropped ball etc.
He probably would have been better with age but he wasn’t a major loss like losing a player at the peak of his powers.
so why would Hansen identify him as the most talented player he's ever seen?
Never said he wasn’t talented. Just didn’t perform to an amazing level despite all that talent.
Which is why shag has accepted responsibility, thrown in when he wasn’t really up to it , selection error , and probably lessons learned for how they develop the likes of Brodie as a comparison
As I said before, he was electric at FB for the Canes in his first year. He went into MF not that long after IIRC. I felt that if he had been allowed to stay at 15 for a few seasons, where he had more time, his option taking would have developed better
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And I think the article is meant to be more about coaching/selecting decisions than toeava himself ,
Toeava is an example of where they got it wrong
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@nzzp said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Man there’s some revisionism here.
Possum in a headlights early on and never ever seemed to go through an AB match without some sort of handling error, dropped ball etc.
He probably would have been better with age but he wasn’t a major loss like losing a player at the peak of his powers.
so why would Hansen identify him as the most talented player he's ever seen?
Did he though... Is that what he actually said?
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@Bones said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@nzzp said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
@Billy-Tell said in The most talented rugby player Shag has ever seen:
Man there’s some revisionism here.
Possum in a headlights early on and never ever seemed to go through an AB match without some sort of handling error, dropped ball etc.
He probably would have been better with age but he wasn’t a major loss like losing a player at the peak of his powers.
so why would Hansen identify him as the most talented player he's ever seen?
Did he though... Is that what he actually said?
You know you can read the article right?
"I look at Isaia Toeava as one of those. He was probably the most talented rugby player I've ever seen and we put him in the team too early.“
