All Blacks 2021
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@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
I reckon DMac should spend the summer working on his passing and move into the 9 jersey
His unpredictability and reflexes might be very appropriate at 9.
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@duluth said in All Blacks 2021:
Results aside, All Blacks' depth off the charts
It's fair to suggest that Foster and his coaching group have finished the season with some excellent depth in every position across the board for the All Blacks and created a few headaches for themselves next year
Just a summary of the options position by position
This table in the article was a decent way of showing it all. Each player is only listed once (ignoring that DMac is also a ten etc)
They’ve generally made reasonable guesses about the current rankings with the selectors (there is a few wierd ones like Nankivell ahead of PUJ)
Isn't TUJ more a 12?
Ennor is the second-best 13 in the country (ok even considering RIoane is there at 11?). That doesn't say too much about midfield depth.
I also question whether DH is still #2 12. In fact, the second team backline isn't exactly shock and awe. More like sometimes safe but often poor. I'd almost prefer backline #3 to #2. #1 vs #2 forwards would be an interesting tussle though. Oh and I think the #1 to #3 hookers are in reverse order on current form. I'd also question the order of 8s.
Edit: and second best halfback is TJP?! -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
and second best halfback is TJP?!
I wouldn’t rate him as that, but you’re missing the point of their chart. TJ is rated 2nd by the selectors
Also it’s impossible to get this perfect. It’s a decent effort
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@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@toddy said in All Blacks 2021:
All Blacks Player of the Year Nominees
After an elongated international season, the coveted All Blacks Player of the Year Awards shape as close contests with four outstanding nominees. Wing Will Jordan is up against loose forward Ardie Savea, fullback Jordie Barrett and centre/wing Rieko Ioane.
Nominees announced for 2021 ASB Rugby Awards
New Zealand Rugby’s (NZR) top performers of 2021 will be recognised in an ASB Rugby Awards TV event, with nominees announced today.
Seems about right to me, best forward, two best backs (Ioane’s attack and Jordie’s reliability), and highest try scorer just to round out to 4
Ardie will win it for the highlight reel, but hands down Jordie has been our best player this year.
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@duluth said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
and second best halfback is TJP?!
I wouldn’t rate him as that, but you’re missing the point of their chart. TJ is rated 2nd by the selectors
Also it’s impossible to get this perfect. It’s a decent effort
Yes you are right they are judging based on what they think are selectors' picks but I still want to question it - especially in the midfield.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2021:
At least he's up front about chasing the yen.
Ioane needs a big 2022 with the Chiefs if he wants to overtake DMac as the 3rd 1st 5 option for the ABs. As Ioane only signed a 1 yr contract, the Chiefs can choose who they want for 2023.
As to the wider question, players will need to decide if money is everything or they still want to be an AB. At the moment these short-term contracts seem to be the way forward if a player wants to make some good coin and refresh the body.
I assume that the Chiefs are trying to get Dmac signed and if they can't, they'll offer Joane an extension (or possibly push up one of the younger players).
I'm glad that Dmac wants to focus on 10, as if he comes back and plays well, he would be almost a certainty for a WC squad (covers 10/15) and if he plays well he could take the bench role off either Mo'unga or Barrett. We need him and more players putting pressure on the top two blokes.
He may just be the best option at 10 in terms of skillset. He's a better passer than BB and has a better punt than both RM and BB. Plus he's not pussy, so will generally run forwards rather than shovelling shit, which the other two are often guilt of. He just needs to learn how and when to utilise his skills
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
Current squad member wants to keep job, so says current coach is great.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when Dane Coles, BB or Whitelock really said what they think of Foster.
We are using menti in meetings which allows anonymous feedback/answers to questions. You quickly figure out what people thoughts are via polls, wordclouds etc. Its fucken brilliant as the boss has no idea who its coming from and the honesty is refreshing. When people aren't worried about offending the boss or losing their jobs they are much more honest and it ultimately leads to better outcomes.
BB has worked with Foster basically his entire pro career and been elevated to the ABs key man in that time. I would suggest he's more worried about a change in coach than basically anyone else in the team
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@chimoaus If you actually investigate the 'incredible depth' a little it doesn't seem all that great.
Your second choice scrummy is TJP, lol. Your top 4 wingers includes Bridge. Your 3rd and 4th choice locks are Tuipulotu and Barrett. Whitelock and Retallick are both approximately a million years of age. Your first choice 8 is a 7, etc.
Not saying the All Blacks aren't still a great side because obviously they are. But 'incredible depth' is stretching it a bit.
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@derpus said in All Blacks 2021:
@chimoaus If you actually investigate the 'incredible depth' a little it doesn't seem all that great.
Your second choice scrummy is TJP, lol. Your top 4 wingers includes Bridge. Your 3rd and 4th choice locks are Tuipulotu and Barrett. Whitelock and Retallick are both approximately a million years of age. Your first choice 8 is a 7, etc.
Not saying the All Blacks aren't still a great side because obviously they are. But 'incredible depth' is stretching it a bit.
Hey
Fuck you Derpus, you suck !
Maybe if our squad was better then I'd have a more elegant rebuttal 😬
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@derpus said in All Blacks 2021:
@chimoaus If you actually investigate the 'incredible depth' a little it doesn't seem all that great.
Your second choice scrummy is TJP, lol. Your top 4 wingers includes Bridge. Your 3rd and 4th choice locks are Tuipulotu and Barrett. Whitelock and Retallick are both approximately a million years of age. Your first choice 8 is a 7, etc.
Not saying the All Blacks aren't still a great side because obviously they are. But 'incredible depth' is stretching it a bit.
Not "your" but "the coaches'"...not that that makes it any better...
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@duluth said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2021:
@duluth The article isn't clear on DMac's contract status. Maybe he says more in the podcast. I am also assuming he will be in the same situation as TJP, so will need to sign a new NZR contract. Reading between the lines he is keen to play for the ABs again so an overseas contract isn't an option.
McKenzie will probably be fine but someday a player is going to get burnt by this. Maybe the price that NZR is willing to pay drops a lot in the next few months?
Also if he is serious about being a ten and J Ioane plays well, does he need to look at another franchise? You could have a situation where J Ioane becomes the clear 3rd choice. Does he have to look at the Canes?
Lots of risk, but lots of Yen too
Yes please, to Canes if Chiefs don't want him, or if they do Ioane will do us as a 10!!
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@derpus said in All Blacks 2021:
@chimoaus If you actually investigate the 'incredible depth' a little it doesn't seem all that great.
Your second choice scrummy is TJP, lol. Your top 4 wingers includes Bridge. Your 3rd and 4th choice locks are Tuipulotu and Barrett. Whitelock and Retallick are both approximately a million years of age. Your first choice 8 is a 7, etc.
Not saying the All Blacks aren't still a great side because obviously they are. But 'incredible depth' is stretching it a bit.
I not convinced that TJP is 2nd choice 9 anymore, but regardless as you say Derpus there is a not a huge amount of depth in some positions. I no probs with Barrett being 3rd or 4th lock, but think we may find either Vai'i or Lord sneaking into the top 4 over next year or so. I personally think Lord has the stuff to be another Retallic in a few years, would imagine Fakatava will be No2 halfback at 23 WC, and Bridge, I wish I could decide if I think he should be there or not.
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In terms of skills and long term position I think DMac is right to concentrate on 10. Whether that fits in with AB(or even Chiefs) plans is a different matter.
He has many years left in the sport if he wants it and injuries allow. He has already lost a tiny bit of acceleration through injury and that was something he used to great advantage from fullback being able to dance around until a tiny gap opened then accelerate through. He is never going to bust through.
His monetary value at 10 is high overseas and the more he plays there the higher it will go.
I reckon he will come back for one more go in NZ, banking on experience and versatility to get him a RWC gig then go back overseas.
He probably would make a good halfback but retraining to a totally new position is counter productive career wise.
I personally think that he has already matured a lot in the 10 jersey and I have mentioned before how, of all our 10s, he has the best weight and direction of passes to time the ball in front of the runner. If utilised by coaches that provides an ability for receivers to run onto the ball and half break rushing defences. BB and RM both pass at the man more than in front and we saw lots of static receiving happening with players (Havili especially) then being sitting ducks for a tackle.
I doubt he will overtake these guys in the pecking order but should still be a squad option.
What we do know is that in the right game he is a highlights machine and entertainer. His value to a club in that regard (if he is also helping them win) is huge. -
@derpus said in All Blacks 2021:
@chimoaus If you actually investigate the 'incredible depth' a little it doesn't seem all that great.
Your second choice scrummy is TJP, lol. Your top 4 wingers includes Bridge. Your 3rd and 4th choice locks are Tuipulotu and Barrett. Whitelock and Retallick are both approximately a million years of age. Your first choice 8 is a 7, etc.
Not saying the All Blacks aren't still a great side because obviously they are. But 'incredible depth' is stretching it a bit.
It's true those 25 players aren't all world class or even test class perhaps. I'd say maybe 23 of those 25 would at least be test level though.
23/25 is a pretty good ratio though, wouldn't you say?
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@duluth said in All Blacks 2021:
Results aside, All Blacks' depth off the charts
It's fair to suggest that Foster and his coaching group have finished the season with some excellent depth in every position across the board for the All Blacks and created a few headaches for themselves next year
Just a summary of the options position by position
This table in the article was a decent way of showing it all. Each player is only listed once (ignoring that DMac is also a ten etc)
They’ve generally made reasonable guesses about the current rankings with the selectors (there is a few wierd ones like Nankivell ahead of PUJ)
Some random thoughts.
- I think it's pretty clear we've got depth. What we are struggling for is a clear idea of who exactly is our top team. We're lacking serious star power.
- Do they only pick players in one position? I'd suggest for example you'd play Ardie at 7, and Sotutu or Jacobsen at 8 before you'd play Kirifi. Similar Rioane at 13 even though he's our best 11.
Some of those guys they included are stretching the point.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Do they only pick players in one position?
Yes, that's what they've done
Otherwise Jacobson might appear in 3 positions, ALB might be the best 12 & 13 etc etc
With all the versatility the table wouldn't really shows depth anymore. There'd be ~20(?) players on the list multiple times
As an approximation of the selectors rankings it's not bad
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@bovidae said in All Blacks 2021:
I think you could argue with some of the selections in the 4th and 5th XVs, and whether they are in the right order, or should be there at all.
Of course
It'd be impossible to get it perfect. If the selectors made their own charts they wouldn't agree with each other
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The table should really only show those expected to be capable of playing test rugby either right now or with short in camp development eg QT if he was listed on this at the start of the year.
There are plenty in that table that are far away from being ready.
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