All Blacks 2021
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@duluth said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2021:
@duluth The article isn't clear on DMac's contract status. Maybe he says more in the podcast. I am also assuming he will be in the same situation as TJP, so will need to sign a new NZR contract. Reading between the lines he is keen to play for the ABs again so an overseas contract isn't an option.
McKenzie will probably be fine but someday a player is going to get burnt by this. Maybe the price that NZR is willing to pay drops a lot in the next few months?
Also if he is serious about being a ten and J Ioane plays well, does he need to look at another franchise? You could have a situation where J Ioane becomes the clear 3rd choice. Does he have to look at the Canes?
Lots of risk, but lots of Yen too
Yes please, to Canes if Chiefs don't want him, or if they do Ioane will do us as a 10!!
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@derpus said in All Blacks 2021:
@chimoaus If you actually investigate the 'incredible depth' a little it doesn't seem all that great.
Your second choice scrummy is TJP, lol. Your top 4 wingers includes Bridge. Your 3rd and 4th choice locks are Tuipulotu and Barrett. Whitelock and Retallick are both approximately a million years of age. Your first choice 8 is a 7, etc.
Not saying the All Blacks aren't still a great side because obviously they are. But 'incredible depth' is stretching it a bit.
I not convinced that TJP is 2nd choice 9 anymore, but regardless as you say Derpus there is a not a huge amount of depth in some positions. I no probs with Barrett being 3rd or 4th lock, but think we may find either Vai'i or Lord sneaking into the top 4 over next year or so. I personally think Lord has the stuff to be another Retallic in a few years, would imagine Fakatava will be No2 halfback at 23 WC, and Bridge, I wish I could decide if I think he should be there or not.
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In terms of skills and long term position I think DMac is right to concentrate on 10. Whether that fits in with AB(or even Chiefs) plans is a different matter.
He has many years left in the sport if he wants it and injuries allow. He has already lost a tiny bit of acceleration through injury and that was something he used to great advantage from fullback being able to dance around until a tiny gap opened then accelerate through. He is never going to bust through.
His monetary value at 10 is high overseas and the more he plays there the higher it will go.
I reckon he will come back for one more go in NZ, banking on experience and versatility to get him a RWC gig then go back overseas.
He probably would make a good halfback but retraining to a totally new position is counter productive career wise.
I personally think that he has already matured a lot in the 10 jersey and I have mentioned before how, of all our 10s, he has the best weight and direction of passes to time the ball in front of the runner. If utilised by coaches that provides an ability for receivers to run onto the ball and half break rushing defences. BB and RM both pass at the man more than in front and we saw lots of static receiving happening with players (Havili especially) then being sitting ducks for a tackle.
I doubt he will overtake these guys in the pecking order but should still be a squad option.
What we do know is that in the right game he is a highlights machine and entertainer. His value to a club in that regard (if he is also helping them win) is huge. -
@derpus said in All Blacks 2021:
@chimoaus If you actually investigate the 'incredible depth' a little it doesn't seem all that great.
Your second choice scrummy is TJP, lol. Your top 4 wingers includes Bridge. Your 3rd and 4th choice locks are Tuipulotu and Barrett. Whitelock and Retallick are both approximately a million years of age. Your first choice 8 is a 7, etc.
Not saying the All Blacks aren't still a great side because obviously they are. But 'incredible depth' is stretching it a bit.
It's true those 25 players aren't all world class or even test class perhaps. I'd say maybe 23 of those 25 would at least be test level though.
23/25 is a pretty good ratio though, wouldn't you say?
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@duluth said in All Blacks 2021:
Results aside, All Blacks' depth off the charts
It's fair to suggest that Foster and his coaching group have finished the season with some excellent depth in every position across the board for the All Blacks and created a few headaches for themselves next year
Just a summary of the options position by position
This table in the article was a decent way of showing it all. Each player is only listed once (ignoring that DMac is also a ten etc)
They’ve generally made reasonable guesses about the current rankings with the selectors (there is a few wierd ones like Nankivell ahead of PUJ)
Some random thoughts.
- I think it's pretty clear we've got depth. What we are struggling for is a clear idea of who exactly is our top team. We're lacking serious star power.
- Do they only pick players in one position? I'd suggest for example you'd play Ardie at 7, and Sotutu or Jacobsen at 8 before you'd play Kirifi. Similar Rioane at 13 even though he's our best 11.
Some of those guys they included are stretching the point.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Do they only pick players in one position?
Yes, that's what they've done
Otherwise Jacobson might appear in 3 positions, ALB might be the best 12 & 13 etc etc
With all the versatility the table wouldn't really shows depth anymore. There'd be ~20(?) players on the list multiple times
As an approximation of the selectors rankings it's not bad
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@bovidae said in All Blacks 2021:
I think you could argue with some of the selections in the 4th and 5th XVs, and whether they are in the right order, or should be there at all.
Of course
It'd be impossible to get it perfect. If the selectors made their own charts they wouldn't agree with each other
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The table should really only show those expected to be capable of playing test rugby either right now or with short in camp development eg QT if he was listed on this at the start of the year.
There are plenty in that table that are far away from being ready.
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They look to have used previous AB selection (irrespective if you played or not) as an indicator, which is fair enough.
So then PUJ should be in the 3rd team in place of Nankivell, and you would have Cameron ahead of Love, as two examples. Personally I would have Harmon ahead of Christie too.
Ross was called into the ABs this year but Hodgman was an AB last year. A toss up.
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It's an interesting table, but there are a few strange ones (e.g., Nankivell ahead of PUJ and not listed as a 12, where he is significantly better). Similarly, TUJ is a 12 too. Beyond that, Flanders should be there ahead of MMT and Hodgman is completely missing.
Having said that, as @Duluth said, exactly where different players would get placed depends on the selector, so it's to be expected that I won't agree with much of it.
To show how the table serves its purpose, we could probably add another column and in some positions still have quality players who could become international class.
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@duluth said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
There are plenty in that table that are far away from being ready.
I agree. Those are the positions that lack depth.
It's an easy way of glancing across the rows and seeing where the problems are
1,2,3 OK but hardly a strong fight.
4,5 weak depth
6 pretty good
7 only strong to 3rd pick if AS is moved there
8 only good by shuffling some 6s in
9 OK if Fakatava is available but quality drops quickly
10 weak
11 weak
12 some options but nothing cemented
13 first choice good, then like 12
14 depth disappears quickly
15 with no DMac very weak although breakout seasons from Sullivan and/or CGB could change that picture. -
listing a bunch of names is not depth!
Some of the guys in the left column aren't playing well, some of the guys in the 2nd column have been proven to not be to standard
that's not depth, that's just people who play the position
this looks like another "NZ rugby players are all amazing, so it can't be their fault results aren't there"
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@duluth said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
11 weak
14 depth disappears quicklyI can't think of time when the wing depth has been worse
Which is saying a lot when we had Ralph on the wing
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
listing a bunch of names is not depth!
Some of the guys in the left column aren't playing well, some of the guys in the 2nd column have been proven to not be to standard
that's not depth, that's just people who play the position
this looks like another "NZ rugby players are all amazing, so it can't be their fault results aren't there"
I'm just disappointed they stopped naming people after five. I wanted to everyone to know that I'm 1847834th in line to be first five-eighth for the All Blacks.
To actually show the relative depth in positions, they should have coloured the cells with the standard of the player.
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Good analysis I thought. The enlarged squad needed this year for such a tough program has built depth through international test opportunities.
Shows how weak we are depth wise in some spots and how some super teams will be threadbare in areas.
Only quibbles for me were Rayasi T Christie and Love rated that high.
We have a lot of 'not quites' at 6 currently. Hoping someone pushes forward there and that we get others progress at prop 10 and back 3.
Thought Harry Plummer and Selby Rickett deserved inclusion and maybe Sami Finau and Sam Gilbert. But only at 5th choice level. -
There'll be a few surprises that come through, always does.
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Depth in mediocrity perhaps.
There's only 2-3 people on that list I'd argue are currently amongst the top in the world in their position (and the second one and third one are arguable).
