Same old Russians, always cheating

mariner4life

The shit appears to have well and truly hit the fan with Russian athletics. 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/09/wada-iaaf-russia-dick-pound-banned'>http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/09/wada-iaaf-russia-dick-pound-banned</a>
 
Report released by former head of anti-doping Dick Pound has uncovered what amounts to state-sponsored doping. Athletes were warned of tests, testers were bribed to make results disappear. And there appears to be a link to bribes to the IAAF, where officials may have taken money to ignore results as well. And it appears to lead all the way to the head of sport for Russia. 
 
The recommendation is for immediate suspension of all Russian athletes from competition in any events, fucking severe!
 
Having just finished the Tyler Hamilton book, my question is, if they are all doping, how did they only finish 4th at the last olympics? Who beat the dopers?

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="540434" data-time="1447128388">
<div>
The shit appears to have well and truly hit the fan with Russian athletics. 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/09/wada-iaaf-russia-dick-pound-banned'>http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/09/wada-iaaf-russia-dick-pound-banned</a>
 
Report released by former head of anti-doping Dick Pound has uncovered what amounts to state-sponsored doping. Athletes were warned of tests, testers were bribed to make results disappear. And there appears to be a link to bribes to the IAAF, where officials may have taken money to ignore results as well. And it appears to lead all the way to the head of sport for Russia. 
 
The recommendation is for immediate suspension of all Russian athletes from competition in any events, fucking severe!
 
Having just finished the Tyler Hamilton book, my question is, if they are all doping, how did they only finish 4th at the last olympics? Who beat the dopers?
</div>
</blockquote>
Must resist....

MN5

I'm certain that's the only way Drago beat Apollo Creed.....but NO ONE beats Rocky!!! 
'ADRIENNNNNNNNNNNNE'!!!!!!!

antipodean

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/athletics/jared-tallent-still-waiting-on-2012-olympic-gold-after-wada-commissions-russia-recommendations-20151109-gkutlh.html'>Canberra Times</a> is banging on about some poor sod waiting for his Olympic medal to be upgraded. Should be thankful for having a silver medal considering walking isn't a sport.

mariner4life

he should have got a better dealer
 
 
 
that's a fucking joke okay!!!

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="540435" data-time="1447128976">
<div>
Must resist....
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Thats an awesome name, better than this poor bastard <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Trickle'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Trickle</a>

jegga

Anyway, back to the original topic. Would anyone be surprised if the chinese were equally as bad?

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="540449" data-time="1447132300">
<div>
Anyway, back to the original topic. Would anyone be surprised if <strike>the chinese</strike> anyone were equally as bad?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
No

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="540450" data-time="1447132591">
<div>
No
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Well you can rule out the impoverished nations for a start, probably most of the muslim countries too because the stans don't usually rate too highly in the medal count, us because we suck at most of the olympic events and probably the rest of the pacific islands too.
Still plenty of scope there though.

mariner4life

yea, 'stanian weightlifters are notoriously clean....

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="540448" data-time="1447132242">Thats an awesome name, better than this poor bastard <a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Trickle">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Trickle</a></blockquote>
 
jegga, he committed suicide......dude.

Rembrandt

great another sport that can no longer be enjoyed without an asterisk beside results. God help me if rugby union comes under this cloud internationally. Bunch of fluffybunnies.

mariner4life

It's only a matter of time really.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="540457" data-time="1447133253">
<div>
jegga, he committed suicide......dude.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yeah , he took losing his granddaughter hard along with his chronic pain . He was pretty cool about people giving him grief about his name though , Tom Cruises character in days of thunder was called Cole Trickle because of him apparently.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/driver?seriesId=2&driverId=84'>Dick Trickle</a> was so much more than a guy with a funny name.
He knew his name was hilarious and often the butt of jokes. It didn't bother him a bit. He embraced it. Trickle realized his name was marketing gold.
"We gave prominent attention to him, then his races, then all races. He helped mainstream NASCAR at SportsCenter.""No sports figure Dan and I had fun with took it more graciously,'' Olbermann wrote Thursday on Twitter. "In fact, gratefully. In a time in which athletes were really getting overly sensitive to what we and everyone was starting to do, his attitude was, 'Hey, you guys made me money. All I've got to do is put up with a little giggling, and I put up with the giggling anyway.'
Trickle died Thursday at age 71 of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound. Depression is a serious problem in our country, from soldiers returning home from the battlefield to people you might never expect who are struggling with everyday life. It doesn't receive enough attention and support. Sadly, it seems to have caught up with Trickle.

red terror

Russians probably were doping, but until Dick Pound and his political cohort removes cannabinoids from their banned substance list, it's difficult to take WADA and their mandate seriously.

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="540458" data-time="1447133283">
<div>
great another sport that can no longer be enjoyed without an asterisk beside results. God help me if rugby union comes under this cloud internationally. Bunch of fluffybunnys.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
It's an inevitability, so brace yourself. I just hope the first blockbuster scandal doesn't touch ABs or NZ rugby, because that could do unthinkable damage to the "brand" and "aura."

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="540434" data-time="1447128388">
<div>
The shit appears to have well and truly hit the fan with Russian athletics. 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/09/wada-iaaf-russia-dick-pound-banned'>http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/09/wada-iaaf-russia-dick-pound-banned</a>
 
Report released by former head of anti-doping Dick Pound has uncovered what amounts to state-sponsored doping. Athletes were warned of tests, testers were bribed to make results disappear. And there appears to be a link to bribes to the IAAF, where officials may have taken money to ignore results as well. And it appears to lead all the way to the head of sport for Russia. 
 
The recommendation is for immediate suspension of all Russian athletes from competition in any events, fucking severe!
 
Having just finished the Tyler Hamilton book, my question is, if they are all doping, how did they only finish 4th at the last olympics? Who beat the dopers?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Russia's response
 
The Kremlin has dismissed accusations of widespread state-sponsored doping among its athletes as "groundless".
Spokesman Dmitry Peskov said there was no evidence for the claims.
The acting head of the Russian Athletics Federation, Vadim Zelichenok, said there were few "fresh facts" in the report and past problems with doping had been tackled.
The report depicted a culture of systematic cheating - with even the secret services involved.
It said neither the All-Russia Athletics Federation (Araf), the Russian anti-doping agency (Rusada), nor the Russian Athletics Federation were complying with anti-doping procedures.
The report - by an independent commission for the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) - sent shockwaves through the world of sport.
Australia and the UK have backed its call to ban Russia from all competitions including next year's Olympics in Rio de Janeiro.
The head of world athletics, Lord Coe, has given Araf until the end of the week to respond to the claims.
Wada has <a class="" href="https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2015-11/wada-acts-immediately-to-suspend-accreditation-of-moscow-laboratory">suspended the accreditation of a Moscow laboratory</a> where samples were sent for testing, with work there now said to have ceased.
<a class="" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/34765444">Wada commission recommends Russia ban</a>
<a class="" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/34767962">What happens if the trust goes out of sport?</a>
<a class="" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/34774405">Russia 'not alone in doping'</a>

'No interference'

Russian reaction has ranged from outrage to a more conciliatory tone.
"If accusations are being voiced, they should be supported by evidence," Kremlin spokesman Mr Peskov told reporters.
"As long as evidence is not provided, it is difficult to accept accusations. They are groundless," he said.

'Black Monday' for Russian athletics, by BBC Monitoring

While reaction in the Russian media has been somewhat muted - just one mainstream daily carried the doping claims on its front page - others have used the story to criticise both Wada and the Russian state.
The <a class="" href="http://www.sport-express.ru/">Sport Express</a> calls the episode "Black Monday", with <a class="" href="http://www.gazeta.ru/">Gazeta.ru</a> agreeing, describing it as "a heavy blow for Russian sport".
<a class="" href="http://www.sovsport.ru/">Sovetsky Sport</a>, blames the government for the situation: "Who spent money on professional light athletes and their brazenly maligned federation? The state."
But the government-owned daily <a class="" href="http://www.rg.ru">Rossiyskaya Gazeta</a> warns against jumping to conclusions.
"If the suspects haven't been proven guilty, why rush to demand that those who are possibly guilty be punished by the IAAF Council?"
<a class="" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34778324">Russian media fear sports isolation</a>
Sports minister Vitaly Mutko has strongly denied that Araf destroyed hundreds of doping samples illicitly at the body's accredited laboratory in Moscow - insisting it had done so only at Wada's request.
Mr Zelichenok admitted that doping had been a problem, but told the BBC: "There is no corruption now. I can lay my hand on the Bible."
Rusada's executive director, Nikita Kamaev, told reporters his organisation had been compliant with Wada standards

red terror

red terror

"Rogue elements..."
 
Lord Coe almost sounds like a conspiracy theorist.

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="540550" data-time="1447169889">
<div>
"Rogue elements..."
 
Lord Coe almost sounds like a conspiracy theorist.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
John comes across as a complete pillock in thsi interview.

voodoo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="540434" data-time="1447128388">
<div>
Having just finished the Tyler Hamilton book, my question is, if they are all doping, how did they only finish 4th at the last olympics? Who beat the dopers?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Great read, though made me feel a little soft having never pushed myself hard enough to "taste the blood in my mouth" - well except where someone has whacked me of course. The amazing thing I found in that book was the way they starved themselves, despite the training and drugs. The focus on weight at the expense of what I assumed would provide energy was amazing.

SammyC

Pretty much confirms what the documentaries and media reports have previously alleged
 
Dick Pound alluded to this being "the tip of the iceberg".
This comment really interests me..... will we ever get to see the rest of that iceberg? 
 
It's pretty obvious what's happening (or not happening) in Kenya, Jamaica and probably the rest of the world, but will it ever be revealed? 
 
The danger now is that it will be spun into a political West vs East battle. It already looks to be heading this way - Apparently Russia has already responded by bringing Crimea and Ukraine into it.
 
The Western media (and one poster above has already done so ) appear to have found their villain. By default, they'll also find their hero, driven mainly by patriotic bias.
Ivan Drago against Rocky Balboa...... Evil vs good...... It's an easy story to write, good triumphs over evil despite all odds.
Well....................... doping doesn't lend itself to that fairytale. (and Rocky was obviously on drugs, look at him)
 
Pound also congratulated Hajo Seppelt, the German journalist who produced the documentary that catalyzed this report, on his "fine piece of investigative journalism"
 
This is the same journalist, whose work was described as a "declaration of war" by Lord Coe, who also said, "There is nothing in our history of competence and integrity in drug-testing that warrants this kind of attack. We should not be cowering. We should come out fighting".
 
So........ Coe attacked the reports, and dismissed the journalist's offer to provide access to his sources,and is now also claiming to be "shocked by the allegations"?
 
The way he is carrying on is ridiculous..... was he the last person in the world to see this coming? 
 
given that he's now in charge of the whole organisation, that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that he can fix it.
 
He had a Daily Mail exclusive from two and half years ago, two German documentaries, and ....... His OWN FUCKING RESEARCH STUDY that hinted at the extent of doping, which was then revealed in the Sunday Times piece (this is the one where Coe dismissed world authorities on blood-doping as "so-called experts")
 
How the fuck can he be shocked? He even declared war on the allegations he's now having confirmed.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="540542" data-time="1447167578">
<div>
Russians probably were doping, but until Dick Pound and his political cohort removes cannabinoids from their banned substance list, it's difficult to take WADA and their mandate seriously.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
There's been a bit of discussion lately in the endurance sport community that they actually do enhance performance

gt12

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="voodoo" data-cid="540609" data-time="1447199598">Great read, though made me feel a little soft having never pushed myself hard enough to "taste the blood in my mouth" - well except where someone has whacked me of course. The amazing thing I found in that book was the way they starved themselves, despite the training and drugs. The focus on weight at the expense of what I assumed would provide energy was amazing.</blockquote>
 
I better get my hands on that book. Looks good. 
When I was running towards a marathon, the best advice I got was to focus on losing weight. Apparently losing 1 kg equals gaining a number of minutes over the distance. When I got down to 79 (from 96 originally) I could do sub 4 minute kilometers which were a dream a few months earlier (and are a dream again now). 
I'd imagine for riders, it's all about power to weight, with weight being a huge influence.

voodoo

Yeah, some of it is clearly common sense. But i thought once you got to 60kgs you were pretty sweet and when you're riding 200kms per day for 3 weeks, you could eat what you wanted - but apparently not. 
It's definitely a good ready. The processes they went through to be the best cyclists and the best drug takers, is pretty impressive

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gt12" data-cid="540618" data-time="1447202839">
<div>
I better get my hands on that book. Looks good. 
When I was running towards a marathon, the best advice I got was to focus on losing weight. Apparently losing 1 kg equals gaining a number of minutes over the distance. When I got down to 79 (from 96 originally) I could do sub 4 minute kilometers which were a dream a few months earlier (and are a dream again now). 
I'd imagine for riders, it's all about power to weight, with weight being a huge influence.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Losing weight is even more crucial when you start running and biking up hill. The best climbers in cycling generally weigh 10-15 Kgs lighter than the guys who win the flat stages.

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="voodoo" data-cid="540609" data-time="1447199598">
<div>
Great read, though made me feel a little soft having never pushed myself hard enough to "taste the blood in my mouth" - .
</div>
</blockquote>
 
as an internet warrior, I push myself like that behind a keyboard all the time.

SammyC

Interestingly on the weight loss side of things, this is part of the Alberto Salazar scandle that involves Mo Farrah/Galen Rupp and quite a few others.
 
One of the things he was allegedly doing was getting thyroid medication for his athletes to help with weight loss.
 
Most wouldn't think that would be an issue for skinny fuckers like those 2, but when you get to the top level in sport, it's all about small gains.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nzzp" data-cid="540631" data-time="1447206661">as an internet warrior, I push myself like that behind a keyboard all the time. </blockquote>
 
I think many on here can relate to that

nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nzzp" data-cid="540631" data-time="1447206661">
<div>
as an internet warrior, I push myself like that behind a keyboard all the time. 
</div>
</blockquote>
its the pulling motions that concern us.

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="540615" data-time="1447202041">
<div>
There's been a bit of discussion lately in the endurance sport community that they actually do enhance performance
</div>
</blockquote>
 
So do carbs and protein. Maybe they need to be put on the list too...?
 
Realistically, the only advantage MJ provides an athlete is recovery time & sleep. It's a very mild painkiller and sedative, and it stimulates appetite. And really, it's all relative -- just because MJ isn't as toxic or as addictive or as dangerous as many prescribed legal pharmaceuticals like Oxycontin over the past decade does not mean it enhances performance. It means it's not nearly as damaging to your health.

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="540612" data-time="1447201079">
<div>
It's pretty obvious what's happening (or not happening) in Kenya, Jamaica and probably the rest of the world, but will it ever be revealed?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Careful now.
 
FWIW, I've heard similar the past month from some North Americans saying the same thing about Kiwi rugby players.
 
I don't like it, especially when they say it's "obvious."
 
In a skeptical world it's not a difficult deduction to make. They hulk up at the Haka, they hit harder, they run faster, less injuries and greater endurance, the "last quarter," they score more points and are far more successful.
 
Deduction: Gottaberoids.

MiketheSnow

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="540699" data-time="1447254966">
Careful now. 
FWIW, I've heard similar the past month from some North Americans saying the same thing about Kiwi rugby players. 
I don't like it, especially when they say it's "obvious." 
In a skeptical world it's not a difficult deduction to make. They hulk up at the Haka, they hit harder, they run faster, less injuries and greater endurance, the "last quarter," they score more points and are far more successful. 
Deduction: Gottaberoids.</blockquote>
It's obvious because of the multiple athletes from each country that have copped bans for drugs. 
If you follow international athletics at all you'd know that it's the case. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/oct/30/kenya-jamaica-world-anti-doping-agency">http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/oct/30/kenya-jamaica-world-anti-doping-agency</a> 
Show me a kiwi rugby player who's been busted?

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="540698" data-time="1447254741">
So do carbs and protein. Maybe they need to be put on the list too...? 
Realistically, the only advantage MJ provides an athlete is recovery time & sleep. It's a very mild painkiller and sedative, and it stimulates appetite. And really, it's all relative -- just because MJ isn't as toxic or as addictive or as dangerous as many prescribed legal pharmaceuticals like Oxycontin over the past decade does not mean it enhances performance. It means it's not nearly as damaging to your health.</blockquote>
It also reduces anxiety, and can help focus controlled aggression. Much the same as beta blocker drugs that are also banned. 
It also opens up the lungs and makes them work better. There's been some interesting research lately involving putting people on treadmills. Under the influence of MJ they run both further and faster

Crazy Horse

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="540705" data-time="1447263254">
<div>
It also reduces anxiety, and can help focus controlled aggression. Much the same as beta blocker drugs that are also banned. 
It also opens up the lungs and makes them work better. There's been some interesting research lately involving putting people on treadmills. Under the influence of MJ they run both further and faster
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Some of my best ever long runs were 'under the influence'. It felt like I could run for ever.

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="540704" data-time="1447262805">
<div>
It's obvious because of the multiple athletes from each country that have copped bans for drugs. 
If you follow international athletics at all you'd know that it's the case. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/oct/30/kenya-jamaica-world-anti-doping-agency">http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/oct/30/kenya-jamaica-world-anti-doping-agency</a> 
Show me a kiwi rugby player who's been busted?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Not my point. PERCEPTION is the point. There's a skeptical audience and there is "obvious-ness." People have told me in the past month they believe ABs are on steroids. Their evidence...? They don't need any. Not when it's so transparently "obvious." And remember, these are people who grew up with Ben. Incredibly skeptical and suspicious people. "Obviously."
 
Many people throwing stones and looking for specks in their brothers eyes, but let me state for the record: There has NEVER been a Kiwi rugby player who even thought of taking a steroid for an advantage and there NEVER will be.

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="540725" data-time="1447276746">
<div>
Some of my best ever long runs were 'under the influence'. It felt like I could run for ever.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Were you on a stop-watch?
 
I was a paid guinea-pig almost 30 years ago at university (Psych Dept), paid to puff weed and conduct mental and physical exercises. It might have distracted me from cramp pains but it sure didn't improve my motor skills, endurance, nor my speed and agility.
 
I may have been the outlier. Or, maybe I simply didn't smoke enough of it.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="540749" data-time="1447283057">
<div>
Not my point. PERCEPTION is the point. There's a skeptical audience and there is "obvious-ness." People have told me in the past month they believe ABs are on steroids. Their evidence...? They don't need any. Not when it's so transparently "obvious." And remember, these are people who grew up with Ben. Incredibly skeptical and suspicious people. "Obviously."
 
Many people throwing stones and looking for specks in their brothers eyes, but let me state for the record: There has NEVER been a Kiwi rugby player who even thought of taking a steroid for an advantage and there NEVER will be.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yeah but you jumped on a statement I made, which has considerable evidence to back it up.
 
The evidence Includes multiple positive tests and confirmed examples of the authorities in these countries not doing enough to prevent doping.
 
I didnt just make that statement because I looked at some athletes and thought it

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="540705" data-time="1447263254">
<div>
It also reduces anxiety, and can help focus controlled aggression. Much the same as beta blocker drugs that are also banned. 
It also opens up the lungs and makes them work better. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Like I said, really, really hard to take WADA seriously. Yoga and transcendental meditation might be next.

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Same old Russians, always cheating